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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

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davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Greenlea,

Thank you for your comments. I am not sure I understand it wholly however.

 2008/11/19 6:14Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Philologos,

Quote:
There is a poignant question from the time that some ascetics were heading for the lonliness of deserts or the isolation of platforms on poles. When one believer heard of this trends he asked the puzzled question 'but whose feet will they wash?' You are mistaken love cannot exist in singularity.


One again you are trying to prove the Triunity in your view solely upon philosophy and this is not valid. And once again, you are comparing God to the limitation of man. When you quoted me you did not quote the part how I explained with reason why God can exist satisfactorily within Himself without people to talk to. Man is made for love. God is love. Man is not love. God is love itself, We all find life in God and God has life in Himself. We look for enjoyment God is enjoyment at His right hand are pleasures forever more. It is as if you were a child who lived in an amusement park you would never need to go anywhere else. God does not need 2 other personalities to talk to He is totally other then us. We have relations based on need God needs nothing but Himself.

 2008/11/19 6:20Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The Spirit searches Him. And He Himself is love itself and love can be satisfied within in itself without having multiple personalities.



I guess I will have to be the one to say this but this is Satan's love. He loved himself. He has been content to heap his love upon himself. He took the love that belonged to God and gave it to himself; hence, he is the father of whoredom.

And it is because of Satan's self-love that we know experiencally self-love. The world promotes this idea. However, God's love is agape love and it is a sacrificial love that looks not to its own things but to the needs of others.


Quote:
I am not saying He is not Triune only that He does not have 3 seperate personalities but one with 3 functions, expressions, parts. God is still relational with Himself as love. We cannot hang out with ourselves because we were created or love but God is uncreated as love.



The word 'personalities' is not the term for describing the historical orthodox view of the Trinity- it is 'persons'. God is not schizophrenic. The personal pronouns used in all the passages I have cited in describing God in relation to Himself denote individual persons that have personality. If I am one person with multiple personalities I would be a schizophrenic. This is not the orthodox view of God. God is one 'what' (substance) and three persons. He is Echad (one): an eternal plural indivisible unity of persons.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/11/19 6:21Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Philosophy has been brought to me, tradition has been brought to me, and when what matters "scripture" is brought to me I have replied with the Bible soundly



What about all of the personal pronouns that have gone virtually un-dealt with? The 'us' and 'we' the 'I' and 'thee'?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/11/19 6:27Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re: This is Not a Tennis Match... Lets Slow things Down

Robert,

Let me start this post by saying that the things which you said here are based on a wrong understanding of what I am saying this time.

Quote:
This is utterly false. The Trinity is a doctrine that originated as the Church began to deal with heresies that came along in the early Church. This is how most doctrine was forged and it gave rise to the age of the Apologists.


I wasnt saying the doctrine of the Triunity was based on a need to prove 3 persons. I was saying the philosophy specifically about God needing someone to hang out with was formed to prove philosophically that the Triunity was true. Now I am not saying this is the only reason this specific philosophy was formed. I believe apologist in an effort to prove the Triunity decided not only to just say the Bible says but to say look what the Bible says is reasonable. This thing I am talking about is incidental anyways so I will move on.


Quote:
It is also important to point out that Oneness Modalist Theology originated with a misunderstanding about the way in which people are baptized. Error begets error. Long story, but if you do a search it may be in the archives. I have written extensively about it before. It is important to know that detail.


I did not come to my view based on an originating error or a baptism or such. As I expressed earlier I did not even come to my conclusion based on what sounded good to my mind but upon the Bible.

Quote:
The Father did not become the Son and then the Son become the Holy Spirit. God has existed as a Trinity from the beginning.


I did not say that this happened. I said the Father sits on the Throne as the head. The word became flesh and dwelt among us. And the Spirit of the Lord hovers over the waters and searches the deep things of God. I believe that they are separate in a sense but I believe they share the same personality.

Quote:
It is irrational and an abuse of language to suggest that the 'us' was called 'us' because of a prophetic ideal of a future existence. Christ "slain from the foundation of the world" does not answer this passage.


Who is the "US"? I just replied to this topic 2 posts ago. The US is the Father, Logos, and Spirit. I am not saying that God does not ever talk to Himself but that He does not have 3 separate personalities. I am also not claiming that this statement is prophetically forward. The only thing that I say is prophetically forward is the Sonship.

 2008/11/19 6:34Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 More Plural Personal Pronouns

[color=000066]Go to, [u]let us go down[/u], and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. (Genesis 11)


And the [u]LORD[/u] appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, [u]three men[/u] stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, [i]and bowed himself toward the ground,[/i] And said, [u]My Lord[/u] (Adonai), if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: (Genesis 18)[/color]

You will know that angels do not accept worship. Here the LORD (YHWH) appeared as three men.



[color=000066]And [u]they[/u] said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. And [u]he[/u] said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. [/color]

Notice the plural and singular pronouns being used together. This is Echad playing out in real time. But who is the they/he that is speaking?

[color=000066]And the [u]LORD[/u] said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? (Genesis 18) [/color]


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/11/19 6:44Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Robert,

Quote:
I guess I will have to be the one to say this but this is Satan's love. He loved himself. He has been content to heap his love upon himself. He took the love that belonged to God and gave it to himself; hence, he is the father of whoredom. And it is because of Satan's self-love that we know experiencally self-love. The world promotes this idea. However, God's love is agape love and it is a sacrificial love that looks not to its own things but to the needs of others.


I know that quoting a man is nothing but I think it to be beneficial at this point to express what I am trying to convey. John Piper teaches this doctrine well and because he is somewhat Iconic in God centered theology in our day I mention him. The reason it was evil for Satan to love himself is because he was stepping outside of his rightful abode. He was not God therefore for him to love himself more then God is wrong. God however is God and so to love Himself supremely is not wrong since for God to be supreme is right. Satan is not love so to love himself solely is not to love love but for God to love Himself it is love since God is love. I am not saying here that it is wrong to love yourself in the most complete sense of the word. We can love ourselves but we must love God first and our neighbors as ourselves. God says to love our neighbors as ourselves not that we shouldn't love ourselves. I am not saying we are to love our sinful natures but we are to care for ourselves and not bring harm to ourselves. We are to love our brethren, friends, family, and they should receive our love so should we not therefore then receive our own love.


Quote:
The word 'personalities' is not the term for describing the historical orthodox view of the Trinity- it is 'persons'.


Persons have personalities. The Logos, Father, Spirit are not persons but they are different parts of God. As our word and spirit are a part of us and not another person so it is with God.

 2008/11/19 6:45Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Robert,

Quote:
What about all of the personal pronouns that have gone virtually un-dealt with? The 'us' and 'we' the 'I' and 'thee'?


I just talked about this. I said God does not have 3 person but He can talk to His Spirit and Logos. As for the John 17 passage Jesus was talking from His Deity as the Logos. It does not say in John 3, "the Son was with God and the Son was God". No, it says, "the Word was with God and the Word was God".

 2008/11/19 6:48Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re: More Plural Personal Pronouns

Quote:
more plural personal pronouns


As I stated God may speak to His Logos and Spirit.


Quote:
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. (Genesis 11) And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord (Adonai), if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: (Genesis 18) You will know that angels do not accept worship. Here the LORD (YHWH) appeared as three men. And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him. Notice the plural and singular pronouns being used together. This is Echad playing out in real time. But who is the they/he that is speaking? And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? (Genesis 18)


Only one of these men was the Lord the others were angels. So when it says let us go down the "us" in this passage could be speaking about the Lord and the angels. Also, the plurality passage that you mention here is therefore then speaking plurally of the Lord with the angels.

 2008/11/19 6:54Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I just talked about this. I said God does not have 3 person but He can talk to His Spirit and Logos.



This is like saying God talks to Himself as a man talks to himself. The difference between God and man is that if I talk to my body my body does not talk back. It is a one sided conversation. If I talk to my spirit my spirit does not talk back. The Son and the Holy Spirit have the capacity to deal individually. I have no such capability.



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/11/19 6:55Profile





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