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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

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davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Ben,

Quote:
He is not speaking of his humanity as the Son but His Divinity as the Logos. When He says Me He is talking about His Divinity just as when He says I. I confess I do not understand the last part of the sentence


This was in context to a question that was asked of me. We were talking about John 17. I was asked about the eternal relationship of the Father and Son. The person was saying that John 17 taught that The Son and the Father have always related. I responded and said that chapter does not say that. It does say that Jesus had an eternal relationship with the Father but it was as the Logos not as the Son since He was not the Son til He was born. He then asked me:
Quote:
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5)

Is the 'me' that Christ is referring to here the 'I' that shared in the glory before the world was? Is it the same person?


He was asking this because if when Jesus said I and Me and He meant was speaking about His humanity then that would mean the Son had an eternal relationship with the Father. However, I responded that Jesus was not speaking from His humanity. He was not saying that He was eternally past human or even the Son He was speaking from His Divinity at this point as the Logos. Sometime Jesus speaks from His humanity and sometime from His Deity. Sometime Jesus lived in His humanity and sometimes He used His Godly power. As I was explaining there were times when Jesus would manifest His glory and show that He was God this was done not in His humanity but His Deity.


p.s. you don't have to read all the posts to know what I am saying you only have to read my first 2 posts.

 2008/11/18 20:14Profile









 Re:

Who was the Father the Father of before everything was created?

Quote:
...Jesus was not speaking [b]from His humanity[/b] ...He was speaking [b]from His Divinity[/b]...Sometime Jesus [b]lived in His humanity[/b]...show that He was God this was [b]done not in His humanity[/b] but His Deity.

This is where I fear you are dividing Christ as if the two natures were separate from each other and that he could act or speak [i]from[/i] one but not [i]from[/i] the other. But since the two natures are of one indivisible Word how can this be?

 2008/11/18 20:30
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Ben,

Quote:
Who was the Father the Father of before everything was created?


I previously answered this. He was the Father of men and of angels because they were called the sons of God. He was in a sense the Father of Jesus always in the sense of looking prophetically forward. But He was not the Father of Jesus until He was born. God didn't have to always be a Father though He was He being God is enough.


Quote:
This is where I fear you are dividing Christ as if the two natures were separate from each other and that he could act or speak from one but not from the other. But since the two natures are of one indivisible Word how can this be?


God took on the form of man. He is both God and man and so can act as either as He chooses.

 2008/11/18 20:37Profile









 Re:

What about before men and angels?

 2008/11/18 20:44









 Re:

you said "I am not denying the Father. God was always a Father."

 2008/11/18 20:47
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Quote:
what about before men and angles?


Before that from what I have read He was God. He does not have to be a Father being God is enough. The verse you are referencing is talking about denying the Father in more then just being a Father it is denying Him as God as well it is denying Him completely. I do not deny God in anyway I only deny from what I understand that He was a Father before before men and angels and such but I do not deny that He is a Father now.

 2008/11/18 20:51Profile









 Re:

He was Father of men and angels but not Father to the Word?

Do you have a time limit on this discussion? Its 9pm where I am but I can stay up.

 2008/11/18 20:54
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Quote:
He was Father of men and angels but not Father to the Word?


The Word does not need a Father. The Word however is dictated by the Head which is the Father. Jesus in the Bible is expressed as the glory of God, the exact image of His person, when you look into the face of Jesus you see the glory of God, if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father, in the bosom of the Father, one with the Father, the Word by which all things were created, God with us, and so on. Or as it says in Revelation that the glory of God and of the Lamb light the city. So Jesus is just the expression of God He is the light which comes forth from the Father.

I will have to catch you later...

 2008/11/18 21:00Profile









 Re:

Quote:
God took on the form of man. He is both God and man and so can act as either as He chooses.

When the whole undivided Christ died a physical death did he die "in his humanity" or "in his divinity"?

 2008/11/18 21:08
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2749
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Quote:
First, here is what I don't believe. I don't believe that God has 3 different personalities. I don't believe that God has been keeping Himself company throughout all eternity by talking to His 3 personalities so that He doesn't get bored.



David, would like to get your thought on the following from Francis Schaeffer...

The first basic need is caused by the lack of certainty regarding the reality of individual personality. Every man is in tension until he finds a satisfactory answer to the problem of who he himself is.

The biblical Christian answer takes us back first to the very beginning of everything and states that personality is intrinsic in what is; not in the pantheistic sense of the universe being the extension of the essence of God (or what is), but that a God who is personal on the high order of Trinity created all else. Within the Trinity, before the creation of anything, there was real love and real communication (John 17:24 & Gen 1:26). Following on from this statement, the Bible states that this God who is personal created man in His own image. A personal God created all things freely in a nondeterminate fashion, and man is created in a special situation - what I would call a special circle of creation. He is the image of this kind of God, and so personality is intrinsic to his makeup. God is personal, and man is personal also.

It might be helpful to illustrate the situation this way. Imagine you are in the alps, and from a high vantage point you can see three parallel ranges of mountains with two valleys between them. In one valley is a lake and the other is dry. Suddenly you begin to witness what sometimes happens in the Alps - a lake forming in the second valley where there was none before. As you se the water rising, you may wonder what the source is. If it stops at the same level of the lake in the neighboring valley then after making careful measurements you can conclude that the water probably came from the first lake. But if your measurement shows that the level is twenty feet higher than the other lake, then you can no longer consider that its source may be from the neighboring valley and you would have to seek another explanation. Personality is like that; [i]no one has ever thought of a way of deriving personality from non-personal sources.[/i]

Therefore, biblical Christianity has an adequate and reasonable explanation for the source and meaning of human personality. Its source is sufficient - the personal God on the high order of the Trinity. Without such a source men are left with personality coming from the impersonal (plus time, plus chance).


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2008/11/18 21:46Profile





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