SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 Next Page )
PosterThread
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Crss,

Quote:
Quote: I see the scripture but I didn't feel right saying that Jesus wasn't always God's son.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Joh 7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me. Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven:


I am not saying that Jesus didn't eternally exist intimately related to God as God. I am just saying that He was not specifically titled the Son until He became the Son in human flesh. It was the being begotten that made Him the Son. Before this He was the Word. To be the Word is not some impersonal lesser thing. The word of the Lord splits the cedars by the word He created all things and upholds them. By you word you are expressed and Jesus is the glory of the Father. He is the express image of His person.


Quote:
Quote: I wanted the truth and clarity on the Scriptures. I almost felt as if the Scriptures just didn't elaborate on it because it was so deep, transcendent, and mysterious.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1Ti 3:16


I am not saying that all mystery is now finished and I have the full revelation of all of God. You must understand though when the word mystery is used in the Bible it is talking about that which was not previously revealed but now has been. It may also talk about something that was just so extraordinary that it was hard to imagine. But it is not saying that it is not explained it is just saying that it was once a mystery but now has been revealed. For example one of the things explained here as a mystery is that Jesus was believed on in the world. We can understand that and we can also understand the Triunity in the same way. Though we cannot understand or grasp and contain all the depth of the revelation of God but we can comprehend the doctrinal side of it. The experiential no but doctrinal yes.


Quote:
But why is that not enough for us?


It would be enough for me. I do not feel like I am stretching the issue out of desperation for an intellectual satisfaction. Though that has played in but not over Scripture.


Quote:
I am finding this again and again may be our very trouble in so many things. If the Lord is a mystery and is mysterious, has chosen to hide those things past our understanding, revealed that much that He has in scripture, where do we get the idea that it can be had or that we need to have this ... hidden knowledge?


Brother I am thankful for your heart in these matters. I believe you to be a wise mature Christian in this thing. I also agree with you affectionately. I would say however that I have already explained the word mystery in Biblical context. I do not think this applies here. But I do think it applies to many doctrinal things. For instance I believe this applies to the whole Calvinism thing as I take neither side but at this point accept that it is not completely elaborated on in scripture.


Quote:
I wonder if it is not truly a form of pride in us


It often is.


Quote:
I am a great proponent of the word; "Perhaps". And of holding two seemingly opposing, 'contradicting' aspects in tension - I find nothing wrong and even that it is far more true and healthy, scriptural to hold things in abeyance, happy that the Lord has done precisely what He has done, keeping things to Himself.


Agree.

 2008/11/18 13:00Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Quote:
I understand the LEVEL of difficulty with accepting something like this but I have to stand of the Scriptures and my conscience.


This is not a question of "level of difficulty". Personally I find your view, as you have presented it thus far, a far too easy understanding of something that is far too difficult. Like describing a 3-d cube by defining a 2-d square.


Quote:
Sure He can keep Himself company but He does not need to have multiple personalities to talk to Himself.


This idea of the trinity is called "modalism".


Quote:
If I were to name this doctrine I would called it the biblical view of the Triunity.


First off, "the biblical view of the Triunity" is a dangerous title for your perspective. It gives the impression that what you have stated is the absolute revelational truth of the perfect interpretation of Holy Writ. If you can claim that meaning with your idea then by all means good title.


Quote:
I am not stating that the Father, Son, and Spirit are limited but that they are eternal. If anything I am saying that they are more alike because they all share the same personality.


This is actually an orthodox view of the Trinity. Not "limited" therefore all three are infinite and all three are eternal. Which means that the Father is wholly and completely God in Himself, the Son is wholly and completely God in Himself, and the Spirit is wholly and completely God in Himself, and all three are One God. If we say that all three "make up" one God then again they cease to be infinite in their individually recognized Personalities (Persons). And if you consider what you have said here, they all share the "same" personality because they are all share the fulness of Deity.

infinite and complete God + infinite and complete God + infinite and complete God = the Trinity, Three in One.


Quote:
it is being taught that if God did not have multiple personalities then He would have no one to relate with... Yes we do agree on the full Divinity of the 3."


The idea of One non-Trinitarian God displaying "multiple personalities" is the error of "modalism" which is actually the way you seem to perceiving the Trinity. Thus, you are thinking of an inaccurate model while trying to fit it into what appears to be an accurate description of the true doctrine of the Trinity, where there in no contradiction, as RobertW mentioned.


Quote:
When He said make man in the image of God he only meant one. Sure he meant them both but both individually.


You're right that God meant both Man and Women were both individually created in the image and likeness of God. But it should also be recognized that God created man in the "image and likeness" and not the exact image or exact likeness. Trying to compare the "similarity" of the Trinity to the different parts of spirit, soul, and body of man is, again, "modalism" and is not orthodox Trinitarianism.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/18 13:01Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Krispy,

Quote:
no one can fully understand the Trinity because it is a mystery.


I elaborated on this earlier. I do not believe the doctrine of the Triunity can be fully understood experientially and revelationally but it can doctrinally. The word mystery in the NT context is not speaking about something that cant be understood but something that once was a mystery and has now been revealed. As believing on Jesus was one of the mysteries and yet can be understood so the Triunity is a mystery but can be comprehended. It may also speak of something which is hard to imagine some difficult thing in the wisdom of God.

 2008/11/18 13:04Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Firstly, and I say this with some firmness, the Lord has not spoken to [b]any[/b] of our hearts regarding the Trinity. The Lord has spoken in Scripture, and the truth regarding the Trinity can be found there. Period.

DavidT, How do you understand this passage:

[i]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear [b]Son[/b]: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him [b]{The Son}[/b] were all things [u]created[/u], that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:[/i] (Colossians 1:13-16)

Paul writes all things were created through the Son, and John says all things were created through the Word. Therefore, the Word and the Son are the same and have been synonymous throughout all eternity.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/18 13:26Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Philologos,

Quote:
Quote: God does not have to have multiple personality disorder in order to keep him self company. God is God let us not forget He is very different then us. Sure He can keep Himself company but He does not need to have multiple personalities to talk to Himself.

This is offensive and unnecessary.


Philologos, I am sorry you are right. I have spoken with a degree of cynicism and erred/ sinned. Especially since I know many of you believe this concept of the Triunity and I am trying to promote unity and edification and not division and argument. I do believe this to be a correct expression of this teaching however I will try to speak more tactfully next time.


Quote:
Please explain how love can function in singularity. How can there be love without a lover and a beloved?


First off I believe it to be Biblical. Secondly in the more specific philosophical realm I will try to answer. Since God is Himself love and not just one that loves or needs to be loved He is satisfied in that. It was not good for man to be alone but this does not apply to God. Man is not love itself and so cannot function solely within Himself. I don't understand all the depths of God but I know it is great to be in His presence so He must have a great time in His own presence as well. Maybe you have studied some God centered theology? In that God loves HImself God is infatuated with Himself supremely and is passionate about His glory. This may seem strange or even sinful to some to be so "selfish and proud". But when you are yourself love then to love yourself is love to glorify yourself is to glorify love. We are man. We are not love. We are creatures made for another. We would be stepping out of our natural abode if we did such a thing so there is a difference between us and Him.

 2008/11/18 13:31Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Quote:
This is not a question of "level of difficulty". Personally I find your view, as you have presented it thus far, a far too easy understanding of something that is far too difficult. Like describing a 3-d cube by defining a 2-d square.


I was answering in context to the question. I know it is not all about the level of difficulty. I was just stating because this has been the mainstream belief does not make it right though that does carry a substantial amount of weight which therefore makes it difficult.


Quote:
Sure He can keep Himself company but He does not need to have multiple personalities to talk to Himself.


All I was saying here is again answering in context. I was stating that God doesn't need this. This philosophy does not dictate my view of the Triunity the Scripture does.


Quote:
Personally I find your view, as you have presented it thus far, a far too easy understanding of something that is far too difficult. Like describing a 3-d cube by defining a 2-d square.


And in response I think that it has been made far too difficult. Because people cant understand it they say it is a mystery. But it can be understood. It is deep in experience and revelation but not so much to just have a doctrinal understanding. I think that many have gone to the extreme in saying that it is incomprehensible and I believe this is rooted in there confusion because it is a bit intricate.


Quote:
First off, "the biblical view of the Triunity" is a dangerous title for your perspective. It gives the impression that what you have stated is the absolute revelational truth of the perfect interpretation of Holy Writ. If you can claim that meaning with your idea then by all means good title.


I do believe this to be authoritative I am confident in it yet humbled. It is not a sin or something rare to state such authority in light of the fact that we claim many things to be authoritative.


Quote:
The idea of One non-Trinitarian God displaying "multiple personalities"


I am not teaching multiple personalities. I am saying there are not multiple personalities but only 3 different parts of God functioning with each other.


Quote:
Trying to compare the "similarity" of the Trinity to the different parts of spirit, soul, and body of man


I believe that man cannot be completely comapared to God but he can to some degree in His image.

 2008/11/18 13:47Profile
Jeppe
Member



Joined: 2007/5/14
Posts: 25
The Netherlands

 Re:

Hi Davidt,

Quote:
I believe that Jesus was not always the Son until He was born in human flesh and it was said of Him, "You are my Son today I have begotten you".



Acts 8:33 reads:
[i]33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.[/i]

This quote from the 2nd psalm also apears in Hebrews.
Nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus became the Son of God when he was born in the flesh. The text in Acts rather [b]seems[/b] to indicate that Jesus became Gods Son after he was raised from the dead.

However we know from varius scriptures that Jesus was already the Son of God when he walked the earth.
So the text: 'Thou [b]art[/b] my Son, this day I have begotten thee.' explains that Jesus [b]is[/b] Gods Son and that God has begotten/raised Him from the dead on ressurection day (which obviously seems to be the 'today' that is spoken off).

According to your interpretation the text should read: 'Once You existed with me, but today You have been born in the flesh and thus You have become my Son." It does not read: 'Thou hast become my Son this day..'
It reads: Thou art My Son, this day...

Jesus was the Son of God before he came tot the earth.

Proverbs 30:4
[i]Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? [b]what is his name, and what is [u]his son's[/u] name,[/b] if thou canst tell?[/i]

I hope ths helps you

Jeppe


_________________
Jeppe

 2008/11/18 14:02Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Taylor,

Quote:
Firstly, and I say this with some firmness, the Lord has not spoken to any of our hearts regarding the Trinity. The Lord has spoken in Scripture, and the truth regarding the Trinity can be found there. Period.


I agree with what you are saying in that the Scriptures are the authority and it is not off of human emotion and feeling. Secondly I am taking my view from Scripture that is what I base it on. However, the Lord has spoken to all of us that are Christians about the Triunity to some degree. If you have not received revelation by the Spirit of God then you are not Christian "I am not saying you arent". This is eternal life that they may know Him. We must know God experientially to have eternal life. The Spirit is the one who leads us into all truth and convinces us.


Quote:
Paul writes all things were created through the Son, and John says all things were created through the Word. Therefore, the Word and the Son are the same and have been synonymous throughout all eternity.


Jesus was slayen from before the foundation of the earth. He was not actually though. He was in the sense that it was already concrete that it would happen. So in a sense the Word was the Son from before the foundation of the earth but not actually. Also, let's say I am in a court case. My name used to be Joe. It has been 10 years since the incident. I have now changed my name to John. The lawyer speaks against me and says John did this and that. So, though my name was Joe at the time of the incident they still call me John because that is who I am now. I know this isn't the best analogy but it is just off the top of my head. The Word and the Son are not always taught synonymously.

 2008/11/18 14:05Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Hello Jeppe,

Quote:
Nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus became the Son of God when he was born in the flesh.


Begotten means to give birth. So when God gave birth to Jesus since He by His Spirit caused Mary to be impregnated He is therefore the Father and of His Son on that day. Thou art my Son this day I have begotten Thee seems to mean to me that Jesus became the Son when the Father begat Him. To respond more fully nowhere in the Scripture does it say that Jesus was always the Son but it does say he became the Son whe He was begotten.


Quote:
It does not read: 'Thou hast become my Son this day..' It reads: Thou art My Son, this day...


When He said Thou art my Son He was saying it after Jesus had already been born. The verse in Psalms was speaking of the future prophetically. And in Acts it had already been fulfilled.


Quote:
Jesus was the Son of God before he came to the earth... Proverbs 30:4 what is his name, and what is his son's name,...


Just as Jesus was slain from before the foundation of the earth but was not actually so also the Word was always the Son but not actually yet. This verse is speaking prophetically forward of what will surely be. It is because it surely will be that it is reckoned as if it already is. Also, to prove a doctrine you have to be able to provide multiple text. Hermeneutically you have to interpret the Bible by the Bible. When you run into an unclear difficult verse you have to compare it to all the clear verses. So if one verses "seems" to say something if there are a multitude of verses saying different then that verse needs to be understood in light of the others.

 2008/11/18 14:28Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Brother Davidt, you are walking down a broad road that only leads to one destination... Destruction.

Please brother, walk away from this foolishness. I beg you.


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/11/18 15:17Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy