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davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

First, here is what I don't believe. I don't believe that God has 3 different personalities. I don't believe that God has been keeping Himself company throughout all eternity by talking to His 3 personalities so that He doesn't get bored.

Secondly, here is what I do believe. I believe that the Father is called God the most and is therefore the Head in role in analogy. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God. I believe that Jesus has eternally been the Logos or the Word and Thoughts of God by which He created all things. I believe that Jesus was not always the Son until He was born in human flesh and it was said of Him, "You are my Son [b]today[/b] I have begotten you". So, as we have a head, a word, and a spirit so does God. As we have different parts and functions therefore and yet are one so is God. As my parts are different, have different roles and functions but don't have different personalities so is God.

 2008/11/17 22:54Profile
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re: The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Longer version:
First I will start with the story of my dealing on this topic. Before I was saved I didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit. And, I hadn't quite figured out Jesus Deity either. There were a lot of things I didn't know at the time. As time progressed as I was saved I learned of these things both doctrinally and experientially. I then went to Bible College and accepted the things taught to me. After a while as my discernment sharpened I began to question things. I also ran into many cults and false religions attacking the Christian view of the Triunity as I evangelized. Some of the stuff they said made some sense and some of what I was being taught at school did not. However I reckoned by faith what I believed to be the normal and right teaching of the Triunity by faith. I started to seek the Lord because I felt an uneasiness with it. I wanted the truth and clarity on the Scriptures. I almost felt as if the Scriptures just didn't elaborate on it because it was so deep, transcendent, and mysterious. However if I could receive revelation on it I would be pleased to have it as I have in other doctrine's sought God to teach me and open the Scripture's to me since I understand that it is not just a scholarly exposition which can reveal these things to you since there is a spiritual war. After time I believe I had a breakthrough and the Scripture's started to fall into place. I now have a solid peace about this and am delighted in the Triunity as it is truly taught in Scripture. It is a bit different from the normal teaching of today but I do not believe by all that much. I might even say the things of which I am about to speak are somewhat incidental however I think it beneficial to communicate both for to be criticized and to instruct toward sound doctrine on such an important doctrine that has escaped many in fullness and perplexed cults like Mormons, Watchtowerites, and Muslims. So here is my view and understanding.

Father:
He is God. The Father is called God the most. He is not more God then the Holy Spirit or Jesus but He is in analogy the Head.

Jesus:
He is God in the flesh. Jesus has eternally been the Logos or the word of God by which God created all things. He was not always the Son until God took on the form of man. One could say relationally He was as dear to the Father as a son but was not the Son in the specific sense that He became when it was said of Him, "You are my Son [b]today[/b] I have begotten you".

Holy Spirit:
He is God. He is the spirit of God. The Lord is the Spirit.

Conclusion:
So, I believe that the Father is the head. Jesus is God's word. And the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. So just as we have a word or thought or mind, and a spirit, and a head so also does God. As we have different parts and different functions and yet are one so also is God. Now... what I do not believe is that God has 3 personalities and has been relating to Himself throughout all eternity amusing Himself so that He would not be lonely.

 2008/11/17 23:19Profile









 Re: The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Hi David,

Quote:
I believe that Jesus was not always the Son until He was born in human flesh and it was said of Him, "You are my Son today I have begotten you".


I see the scripture but I didn't feel right saying that Jesus wasn't always God's son. This just came to mind. Jesus called God his Father rather than Joseph when he was twelve but that was 18 years before "today I have begotten you."

 2008/11/17 23:29
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 326


 Re:

Ben,

Quote:
I see the scripture but I didn't feel right saying that Jesus wasn't always God's son.


I had a hard time coming to this conclusion as well. I mean most of the Church has usually held to a different view. And I had previously held to this for a while. The Word was always dear as a Son but not actually the Son until He was born as a child.


Quote:
Jesus called God his Father rather than Joseph when he was twelve but that was 18 years before "today I have begotten you."


I know that the Father didn't speak this from heaven out loud publicly before but I believe this was accomplished when he was born or begotten so I believe that this statement is talking about that day. I would also say that there is a possibility that the word day can be used as in this time or season in general. But, specifically it means that day of the actual birth.


Quote:
Jesus called God his Father rather than Joseph


Jesus was speaking from His humanity. Jesus and the Father are one and the Lamb dwells in the midst of the Throne. To be even more specific God is speaking to Himself. God took on the form of man called Himself His own Son since He begot Himself and then spoke and acted toward Himself He was the only one who could do it and so had to act not only for others but toward Himself as well though it seems odd I think it makes very good sense. He was the only one who could act toward Himself and fulfill His justice and so He did in this somewhat complex way.


I think though that this doctrine is somewhat incidental my main focus is on the fact the the Triunity is portraying God as a God with 3 personalities talking to Himself which is weird and unsound and not only confuses Christians but also turns off those outside the faith and false religions because of it's awkwardness. If this were the case that God were this way and the Bible taught it I would accept it and just say that is the way God has made but I sincerely have not come to that conclusion and have tested it often and have found no one to ever respond to it substantially and I am blessed to have understanding I think it is very helpful because this mainstream portrayal I believe has not produced edification. I think it is because of the difficulty and intricacy of this doctrine that it is so little understood.

 2008/11/18 0:06Profile
Greenlea
Member



Joined: 2008/11/5
Posts: 28


 Re: Trinity

Be encouraged davidt. You are not alone in your accessment.

Father has also spoken to my heart on this matter and gave it to me as you explained it.

I smiled when I read it.

:-) ;-)

 2008/11/18 2:41Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

It is currently late so I will be quick to the point.

Quote:
Conclusion:
So, I believe that the Father is the head. Jesus is God's word. And the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit. So just as we have a word or thought or mind, and a spirit, and a head so also does God. As we have different parts and different functions and yet are one so also is God. Now... what I do not believe is that God has 3 personalities and has been relating to Himself throughout all eternity amusing Himself so that He would not be lonely.



What you are talking about here is not foundational Christian theology. There is a reason the Trinity, the Godhead Three in One, has withstood the test of over 1700 years with the harshest criticisms of the greatest philosophers and theologians throughout church history.

While I am not going to get into too much detail about this, I will leave you with this criticism on the concept you have presented.

God, first and foremost, loves Himself. Yet, if God was One God with three different parts then His love would not be perfect. You need someone else for love to be perfected -- example, "love does not seek its own." Eternal Love requires an Eternal Object besides oneself to love. The Trinity fulfills this requirement with Three Persons in One. This importance has at least three points: 1) imperfect love is not God 2) without at least Two Eternal Persons in One, God ceases to be Self-Sufficient. That is, the nature of God's love requires a second object to love. If that object is anything other than God Himself then God ceases to be Self-Sufficient (He becomes dependant upon something not God for His perfection). 3) Obviously God cannot love Himself as a Second Object, or Third Object, if He is One Person with varied parts.

Also, as you have explained your understanding of the triunity: if the Father is a "part" of God, the Son is a "part" of God, and the Holy Spirit is a "part" of God, then each part in and of itself is not God. To be God requires the wholeness and completeness of the infinite attributes that God is. That is, if the Father is a piece of God then He is not infinite, if the Son is a piece of God then He is not infinite, if the Spirit is a piece of God then He is not infinite. And if these three are not infinite then it is impossible to add three finites together to sum infinite.

finite + finite + finite does not equal infinite. It is impossible.

There is a name for this view of triunity, though I don't presently recall what it is.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/18 3:34Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

As BoG said, the truth of the Trinity is foundational to Christianity. We need to realize up front the seriousness with which we approach it. All cults have at their foundation a [u]false[/u] view of the nature of God. This subject has been handled in these forums extensively. I would suggest doing a search and reading through the wealth of materials that have been presented. It is simply too labor intensive to go back line upon line and reestablish all of the essential points.

I would offer this resource to consider. It is Ravi Zacharias explaining how the law of non-contradiction is not violated by the doctrine of the Trinity. You will find it [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdejhQeAPUk]HERE.[/url]


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/11/18 6:05Profile









 Re:

Davidt, I agree with most of what you have written concerning the Godhead/Triunity.

However for more sharpening I would like to make a few statements for us to meditate on and fine tune what you/we are saying.

1. I don't think it has to be weird for God to talk with His Word/self and His Holy Spirit. While you may have been taught that he did it so he wouldn't "get bored" I have not heard that in my short twenty years of study.

2. The three persons. Because Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "He" this indicates further the existence of three eternal, not created, persons that make up the Godhead/trinity.
The cults depart by saying Jesus is not eternaly God/Divine and the Holy Spirit is not eternaly God/Divine. They view this as a three Gods teaching.

While a sound understanding of the Godhead can be difficult for some it still is something that can be "apprehended" though not fully comprehended.

3. I may have misunderstood you on this point. I think you indicated that God the Father himself left His throne and descended down to earth in the form of Jesus. Help me here if I am wrong on what you said.

I don't know if you have read the "early Christian writings" concerning the Godhead/Tinity? I found their quotes to be very helpfull. David Bercot's "Dictionary of Early christian beliefs" is very good tool for this.

My red flags on this subject raise when we start to approach things that would indicate that Jesus or the Holy Spirit are not eternaly Divine/God and that there are not three seperate "persons" that make up the eternal Divine Godhead. Based upon what I think you are saying we probaly agree on Jesus and holy Spirit being eternaly divine but may not agree fully on the persons aspect?
God bless, John

 2008/11/18 6:33
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: The Triunity (my slightly differing view/ understanding)

Quote:
As my parts are different, have different roles and functions but don't have different personalities so is God.



This is impossible because it makes nonsense of all of the conversations that take place between the Father and the Son as well as the references to the Holy Spirit as being God Himself with the capacity to be grieved and blasphemed.


Quote:
I believe that Jesus was not always the Son until He was born in human flesh and it was said of Him, "You are my Son today I have begotten you".



Jesus Christ cannot be said to have been an impersonal idea that eternally existed in the mind of God and was manifest in the earth to 'become' God's Son. The incarnation of Christ brought about the [i]hypostatic union[/i] in which God became flesh and dwelled among us.


[color=000066] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17) [/color]

Notice the personal pronoun 'I'- it denotes personality. He did [u]not[/u] say glorify me with the glory before 'I' was, but before the [i]world[/i] was. Clearly the 'I' here clearly existed and shared in the glory of the Father. Paul deals with how Christ 'emptied Himself' of this glory for the purpose of being made in the likeness of men:

[color=000066] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (Philippians 2:5-8) [/color]

Key in on the portion [i]made himself of no reputation and took upom Him...[/i]; again, these a personal pronouns and not impersonal ideas eternally existing in the mind of God. This was the true fulfillment Isaiah 6:

[color=000066]Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for [u]us[/u]? Then said I, Here am I; send me. (Isaiah 6)

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; (Isaiah 61:1)

And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (Luke 4:20, 21)
[/color]

See also this SI archived thread called
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=7893&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0]Godhead[/url] and this article on the Hebrew concept of plural unity called [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1993]'One Yachid or one Echad?"[/url]


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/11/18 6:35Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
There is a name for this view of trinity, though I don't presently recall what it is.



Is it called "Oneness" theology?

Sounds to me like some people like to complicate the most simple things!

God said let us make man in our own image so in the image of God created he him, male and female. Two persons: me and you. So, if God made two why not have three persons in the Godhead all working together as a unit with different functions?

Not scholarly, I'll admit ...

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2008/11/18 7:37Profile





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