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rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
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 Re:

Quote:

Abe_Juliot wrote:

Friend, did you know that you are in the bible?

right now you are right here in verse 20 and you are replying against God when you accuse Him of injustice.




I must correct you because you are very much mistaken in your accusation. I will never accuse God of any wrong doing. It is your doctrine that is accusing him of not being willing to save all of his creation. It is your doctrine that is damning the people that Christ died for, not mine.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 2008/11/15 22:54Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
If I might ask. Luke 6 35. "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men." How does this fit in to your doctrine that the Father gave His Beloved Son expecting a reward: the Bride; sovereignly requiring the salvation of this amount: *_________________________* ?



You are quoting and speaking Luke 6:35 to Jesus, When Jesus is speaking to you in this verse. For he later says, " Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." (Luke 6:37)

Are you going to stay with the flow of the context and say this to Jesus? Are you going to tell Jesus not to Judge sinners and condemn the wicked? Are you going to tell Jesus that if He does not forgive those that He is presently pouring His wrath on, He won't be forgiven?

Jesus is speaking to you in this verse. Jesus has authority to judge sinners, condemn sinners, and to not forgive them. You don't have this authority.

Furthermore, Jesus does show acts of goodness and longsuffering upon the wicked, even those who He has not elected to be under His eternal Love and eternal redemption (which is through the blood of the cross).

1. God restrains many of the sins of the wicked. If God had not restrained us when we where unregenerate, we would have manifested such horrifying sins, we would appear as the devil himself. That is why the scriptures say of every unregenerate man. "Their feet are swift to shed blood." (Rom 3:15) That was us my friend.

2. Jesus shows much more goodness to the wicked in that He does not immediately kill them and send them to Hell right now. He has all power and authority to do this. It is His goodness that He is longsuffering to them. Furthermore He feeds his enemies. Hitler owed God thanksgiving for all his meals, his clothing, his shelter, his family, and many other acts of kindness which God showed towards Him.

All these acts of kindness that He has showed towards the wicked are undeserved and God does not require them to earn his goodness.

-Abraham

Edit: quote added, grammar check


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/15 22:59Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
I must correct you because you are very much mistaken in your accusation. I will never accuse God of any wrong doing. It is your doctrine that is accusing him of not being willing to save all of his creation. It is your doctrine that is damning the people that Christ died for, not mine.



If it is this doctrine which you conclude is damning souls, you must relate this conclusion to this man also. I am preaching the gospel that He preached.

The following is a collection of quotes from Charles Spurgeon on the subject of "For Whom Did Christ Die?"

If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in Hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. . . That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in Hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, p. 172)

We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it, we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, "No, certainly not." We ask them the next question-Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They say, "No." They are obliged to admit this if they are consistent. They say, "No; Christ has died so that any man may be saved if"-and then follow certain conditions of salvation. We say then, we will just go back to the old statement-Christ did not die so as beyond a doubt to secure the salvation of anybody, did He? You must say "No;" you are obliged to say so, for you believe that even after a man has been pardoned, he may yet fall from grace and perish. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why you... We say Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermon 181, New Park Street Pulpit, IV, p. 135)

I would rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of men be added to it. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p. 70)

A redemption which pays a price, but does not ensure that which is purchased -- a redemption which calls Christ a substitute for the sinner, but yet which allows the person to suffer - is altogether unworthy of our apprehensions of Almighty God. It offers no homage to his wisdom, and does despite to his covenant faithfulness. We could not and would not receive such a travesty of divine truth as that would be. There is no ground for any comfort whatever in it. (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 49, p. 39)
Now, beloved, when you hear any one laughing or jeering at a limited atonement, you may tell him this. General atonement is like a great wide bridge with only half an arch; it does not go across the stream: it only professes to go half way; it does not secure the salvation of anybody. Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream. I am told it is my duty to say that all men have been redeemed, and I am told that there is a Scriptural warrant for it—"Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." Now, that looks like a very, very great argument indeed on the other side of the question. For instance, look here. "The whole world is gone after Him." Did all the world go after Christ? "Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children," and "the whole world lieth in the wicked one." Does "the whole world" there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were "of God?" The words "world" and "all" are used in seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile.
Leaving controversy, however, I will now answer a question. Tell me, then, sir, whom did Christ die for? Will you answer me a question or two, and I will tell you whether He died for you. Do you want a Saviour? Do you feel that you need a Saviour? Are you this morning conscious of sin? Has the Holy Spirit taught you that you are lost? Then Christ died for you and you will be saved. Are you this morning conscious that you have no hope in the world but Christ? Do you feel that you of yourself cannot offer an atonement that can satisfy God's justice? Have you given up all confidence in yourselves? And can you say upon your bended knees, "Lord, save, or I perish"? Christ died for you. If you are saying this morning, "I am as good as I ought to be; I can get to Heaven by my own good works," then, remember, the Scripture says of Jesus, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." So long as you are in that state I have no atonement to preach to you. But if this morning you feel guilty, wretched, conscious of your guilt, and are ready to take Christ to be your only Saviour, I can not only say to you that you may be saved, but what is better still, that you will be saved. When you are stripped of everything, but hope in Christ, when you are prepared to come empty-handed and take Christ to be your all, and to be yourself nothing at all, then you may look up to Christ, and you may say, "Thou dear, Thou bleeding Lamb of God! thy griefs were endured for me; by thy stripes I am healed, and by thy sufferings I am pardoned." And then see what peace of mind you will have; for if Christ has died for you, you cannot be lost. God will not punish twice for one thing. If God punished Christ for your sin, He will never punish you. "Payment, God's justice cannot demand, first, at the bleeding surety's hand, and then again at mine." We can today, if we believe in Christ, march to the very throne of God, stand there, and if it is said, "Art thou guilty?" we can say, "Yes, guilty." But if the question is put, "What have you to say why you should not be punished for your guilt?" We can answer, "Great God, Thy justice and Thy love are both guarantees that Thou wilt not punish us for sin; for didst Thou not punish Christ for sin for us? How canst Thou, then, be just—how canst Thou be God at all, if Thou dost punish Christ the substitute, and then punish man himself afterwards?" Your only question is, "Did Christ die for me?" And the only answer we can give is—"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ came into the world to save sinners." Can you write your name down among the sinners—not among the complimentary sinners, but among those that feel it, bemoan it, lament it, seek mercy on account of it? Are you a sinner? That felt, that known, that professed, you are now invited to believe that Jesus Christ died for you, because you are a sinner; and you are bidden to cast yourself upon this great immovable rock, and find eternal security in the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.
(Charles Spurgeon, from the sermon Particular Redemption)

For whom did Christ die?

The following is from Spurgeon’s sermon,
"LAUS DEO" (No. 572, Romans 11:36)

We hold that Christ did not redeem every
man, but only redeemed those men who will
ultimately attain unto eternal life.

We do not believe that he redeemed the damned.

We do not believe that he poured out
his life blood for souls already in hell.

We never can imagine that Christ suffered
in the room and stead of all men, and that
then afterwards these same men have to
suffer for themselves.

We do not believe that Christ pays their
debts, and then God makes them pay their
debts again a second time.

We hold to this- that Christ laid down his
life for his sheep, and that his laying down
his life for the sheep involved and secured
the salvation of every one of them.



_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/15 23:07Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



This scripture teaches us that He suffered the wrath of God for the sins that the world has committed. If God purposed in the death of His Son to save all men universally, He would. And His propitiation would be sufficient to save the most vile of sinners in this world. This text is not teaching us that Jesus actually propitiated or atoned for their sins. For if He had done this, all men universally would be justified and no longer under the wrath of God.

Edit: Sentence structure changed for clarification

Edit Addition:

If you are having trouble with "wolrd" texts,

This may be of some help in studying the scriptures.

[url=http://www.albatrus.org/english/universalistic/universalistic_passages/index_universalistic_passages.htm]Universalistic Verses[/url]


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/15 23:14Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

I agree with you concerning the scriptures where it says that all have sinned and deserve his wrath.

But your reasoning of how he decides to save some and not others is unscriptural. The bible says to whosoever that believes but you say it is only the one's he choose to believe. You give no reason to why he passes over some but only to say that saving some is better than none. I don't think you would say that if you were the one that got passed by and was going to have to spend eternity in hell.

Evidently you must believe that you are one of the elect that God decided to save and didn't pass you by.

I wonder what makes you the happiest about, is it that you are one of the elect or that some are not the elect according to your doctrine. According to your writings you seem to be happy that God is pouring out his wrath on helpless sinners. I know you are glad you are not one of them. I am not happy people are going to hell when Christ paid such a high price of his own precious blood. I believe if God can save some then he can save all. You don't believe this that is your belief not mind. Man and Satan is responsible for man's unbelief and not God.

 2008/11/15 23:36Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

Abe_Juliot wrote:
Quote:
I must correct you because you are very much mistaken in your accusation. I will never accuse God of any wrong doing. It is your doctrine that is accusing him of not being willing to save all of his creation. It is your doctrine that is damning the people that Christ died for, not mine.



If it is this doctrine which you conclude is damning souls, you must relate this conclusion to this man also. I am preaching the gospel that He preached.

The following is a collection of quotes from Charles Spurgeon on the subject of "For Whom Did Christ Die?"

If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in Hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. . . That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in Hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, p. 172)




Spurgeon was a great preacher mightily used of God but he is still just a man and his words are not the bible.

I took this quote from his writings.

"To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in Hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain."

Why is it not horrible to entertain the thought that Christ suffered such a horrible death and then skip over some of his creation that he loves when all were born in sin after Adam.

Why is it not horrible to think that Christ wanted to save some but not all. Why is it not horrible to think that when God has the power to save all but won't save some.

 2008/11/15 23:50Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
The bible says to whosoever that believes but you say it is only the one's he choose to believe.



There is no such thing as a whosoever believer that is not born of God.

I stand on the word of God that I stated earlier, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." (1Jn 51:)

There is no such thing as an unregenerate believer. They don't exist in the bible and they don't exist in this world.

True believing must be done in love to God. "faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6) You cannot believe on Jesus when you hate Him.

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1Jn 4:7)

There is no such thing as unregenerate lover of God. They don't exist in the bible and they don't exist in this world.

Furthermore, I plead with you to consider these text on Man's Ruin.

"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." -Luke 13:24
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." -John 6:44
"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -John 6:65
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man." -John 8:14-15
"Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." -John 8:21-23
"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." -John 8:43-47
"That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." -John 12:38-40
"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." -John 14:17
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." -John 15:5
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." -Romans 8:7-8

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." -John 1:12-13

I want to empasize this text in Ezekiel to you.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Notice the words in the last verse of this passage in Ezekiel. You have the words walk, keep and do. Prior to these words, you have the word Cause. Prior to the word Cause, you have the words I Will repeated numerous times by God and not you.

It was His will. It wasn't from your will. He caused it. You didn't cause it. We love Him, because He first loved us. Praise Him for His mercy. Come, Let us run to His throne of Grace and wash His feet with our tears! Praise Him for His mercy!

"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth." -Psalm 110:3

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." -Rom 9:16

-Abraham


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/16 0:43Profile
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 Re: Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?

Brother Abe, you are going to have to answer better than that.

Quote:
You are quoting and speaking Luke 6:35 to Jesus, When Jesus is speaking to you in this verse. For he later says, " Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." (Luke 6:37)



Quote:
Jesus is speaking to you in this verse. Jesus has authority to judge sinners, condemn sinners, and to not forgive them. You don't have this authority.



I do not have authority to judge, condemn, or forgive those who have sinned against God -- this is not implied to those who have sinned against me insofar as I am able ([b]Romans 12:18[/b]). I do have authority and am commanded by God to judge, condemn, and pardon those who have sinned against me just as God has judged (Christ as the propitiation for my sins), condemned (crucified me with Christ), and forgiven me (raised me up with Him) by grace through faith in His Beloved Son.

ie. To those who have sinned against me: my judgment ought to be reconciliation ([b]Matthew 5:24[/b]), my condemnation ought to be to my own abasement ([b]Matthew 5:40[/b]), and my pardon must be without expecting a recompense ([b]it must be a free gift[/b]) -- just as our Lord and Savior set for us an example to follow in obedience from the heart in faith.


Quote:
Are you going to stay with the flow of the context and say this to Jesus? Are you going to tell Jesus not to Judge sinners and condemn the wicked? Are you going to tell Jesus that if He does not forgive those that He is presently pouring His wrath on, He won't be forgiven?



You know this is a poor interpretation of scripture. Jesus is without sin and is therefore not under judgment or condemnation or in need of forgiveness. Which is also the very reason that He has authority to judge righteously.

[b]Luke 6
36.[/b] "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
[b]37.[/b] "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

This does not say "Judge not [the end]". This statement is compared to the following verse, "For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again". Thus, when we judge we shall also be judged.

An excerpt from [b]The Reformed Pastor[/b] by Richard Baxter:
"See that the work of saving grace be thoroughly wrought in your own souls. Take heed to yourselves, lest you be void of that saving grace of God which you offer to others, and be strangers to the effectual working of that gospel which you preach; and lest, while you proclaim to the world the necessity of a Savior, your own hearts should neglect him, and you should miss of an interest in him and his saving benefits. Take heed to yourselves, lest you perish, while you call upon others to take heed of perishing; and lest you famish yourselves while you prepare food for them. Though there is a promise of shining as the stars, to those ‘who turn many to righteousness,’ that is but on supposition that they are first turned to it themselves. Their own sincerity in the faith is the condition of their glory, simply considered, though their great ministerial labors may be a condition of the promise of their greater glory. Many have warned others that they come not to that place of torment, while yet they hastened to it themselves: many a preacher is now in hell, who hath a hundred times called upon his hearers to use the utmost care and diligence to escape it. Can any reasonable man imagine that God should save men for offering salvation to others, while they refuse it themselves; and for telling others those truths which they themselves neglect and abuse? Many a tailor goes in rags, that maketh costly clothes for others; and many a cook scarcely licks his fingers, when he hath dressed for others the most costly dishes. Believe it, brethren, God never saved any man for being a preacher, nor because he was an able preacher; but because he was a justified, sanctified man, and consequently faithful in his Master’s work. Take heed, therefore, to ourselves first, that you he that which you persuade your hearers to be, and believe that which you persuade them to believe, and heartily entertain that Savior whom you offer to them. He that bade you love your neighbors as yourselves, did imply that you should love yourselves, and not hate and destroy yourselves and them."


[b]James 2:13[/b], "judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy."


[b]Matthew 18
27.[/b] "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
[b]28.[/b] "But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, `Pay back what you owe.'
[b]29.[/b] "So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, `Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
[b]30.[/b] "But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
[b]31.[/b] "So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
[b]32.[/b] "Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, `You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
[b]33.[/b] `Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
[b]34.[/b] "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
[b]35. "My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." [/b]


The question still stands, brother:

Luke 6:35, "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men."

How does this fit in to your doctrine that the Father gave His Beloved Son expecting a reward: the Bride; sovereignly requiring the salvation of this amount: *_________________________* ?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/16 0:45Profile
Abe_Juliot
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Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
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 Re:

God is not obligated to show mercy to anyone. Sinners are not to be compared to poor sick people who want a cure. All sinners are rebels who hate God. i have been reading through Isaiah and I am amazed that God has shown mercy on us. We should be more amazed that God has shown mercy on some. Rather, you are questioning why would God would not have mercy on all. My friend, God can do whatever He wants with us concerning His mercy. Mercy is undeserved. Mercy is not a medicine for an innocent sick soul. Mercy is a sovereign work of Grace upon the worst of wretched sinners, whereby He grants them mercy to be faithful.

Read what Paul the apostle said concerning why he was faithful? He declared by the Spirit of God, that he had obtained Mercy to be Faithful.

"...yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful." (1Co 7:25)

Furthermore, read what Paul said concerning why He was saved.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Tts 3:5)

Sinners are not innocent sick people who want the cure.

Read what Isaiah says about the wicked?
[1] The wicked are a seed of evildoers. They are children that are corrupters. Their whole head is sick and their whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it (Isa 1:4-6).
[2] The gifts and sacrifices of the wicked are vain and abominable unto God. The religious zeal and penance of the wicked is iniquity (Isa 1:13).
[3] The wicked may hear the gospel with their ears, but they do not understand it with an ear of faith. The wicked may see the works of the LORD with their eyes, but they do not perceive the LORD with the eyes of understanding (Isa 6:9).
[4] When the LORD smits or punishes the wicked, they do not turn unto him. The wicked do not seek the LORD (Isa 9:13).
[5] The LORD shall have no joy in the young men that He has chosen to not have mercy upon. For everyone of them is a hypocrite, an evildoer, and every mouth speaks folly (Isa 9:17).
[6] If favor is shown to the wicked, he will not learn righteousness. In the land of uprightness he will not deal justly and he will not behold the majesty of the LORD (Isa 26:10).
[7] The wicked are children that will not hear the law of the LORD (Isa 30:9).
[8] The heart of the wicked will work iniquity (Isa 32:6).
[9] All nations before the LORD are as nothing. They are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity (Isa 40:17).
[10] The wicked may see many of the wonderful works of God, but they will not observe or give heed to the gospel call. The wicked may attend to hear the gospel with their ears, but they do not understand it with their heart (Isa 42:20).
[11] The greedy shepherds cannot understand (Isa 56:11).
[12] None of the wicked call for justice. None of the wicked plead [or defend] for truth. The works of the wicked are works of iniquity. Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood. Their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity. Wasting [or violence] and destruction are in their paths. The way of peace they know not. There is no judgment in their goings. They have made them crooked paths. The wicked are in desolate places as dead men (Isa 59:4-10).
[13] We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. We all do fade as a leaf. Our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. There is none that calleth upon the name of the LORD, that stirreth up himself to take hold of the LORD (Isa 64:6-7).

Quote:
You give no reason to why he passes over some but only to say that saving some is better than none.



God elects [i.e. chooses, predestines, foreordains]

1. His angels
2. 1Tim 5:21 His peculiar people, Israel
3. Exo 6:7; Deu 7:6-8; Deu 10:14-15; Psa 33:12; Isa 43:20-21 Individuals to salvation
4. Psa 65:4; Mat 24:24; John 6:37; John 15:16; Act 13:48; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 9:10-24; Rom 11:5-7; Eph 1:3-6; Eph 1:11-12; 1The 1:4; 1The 5:9; 2The 2:13-14 Individuals to condemnation
Exo 4:21; Rom 9:13; Rom 9:17-18; Rom 9:21-22; 1Pet 2:8

His motivation in election

1. His own good pleasure
2. Eph 1:5; 2Tim 1:9 The display of his glory
3. Isa 43:6-7; Rom 9:22-24; 1Cor 1:27-31; Eph 2:4-7; Pro 16:4 His special love
4. Deu 7:6-8; 2The 2:13 His foreknowledge
Rom 8:29; 1Pet 1:2
* Which means his special love
* Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2; Mat 7:22-23; 1Cor 8:3; 2Tim 2:19; 1Pet 1:20 But not:
* Any good [nobility, wisdom, power, choice, seeking] he foresees in anyone Deu 7:7; Rom 9:11-13; Rom 9:16; Rom 10:20; 1Cor 1:27-29; 1Cor 4:7; 2Tim 1:9

Quote:
I don't think you would say that if you were the one that got passed by and was going to have to spend eternity in hell.



No, I wouldn't love the truth of God if God had justly left me with a rebellious heart. I would be in hell and enslaved to a heart of unbelief and hatred towards God. The Righteous also would rejoice that God has damned a sinner such as I. For I deserve God's eternal wrath.
Oh, my friend... there is mercy for the chief of sinners. He is rich in mercy to all who call upon Him from a heart of Faith in His finished work of redemption

But God, in His great merciful love has saved this poor wretched sinner. He through the death of His own Son has made me a partaker of His grace. He has done this for His glory and for His names sake. Hallelujah!

Quote:
Man and Satan is responsible for man's unbelief and not God.



I have not stated this. But, rather I have agreed on this note. And, you should know this if you had read my previous responses.

I previously wrote, "God does not cause sin or unbelief. Man gets the blame for his sin and not God.

This is why God may justly ask the sinner, "...why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost..." (Act 5:3)"...Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." (Act 5:4) "How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?" (Act 5:9)

God causes Faith and Love in the Heart. That is why you cannot give me one scripture where Paul or any other of God's children in Scripture thanked man for something praiseworthy."

Quote:
Evidently you must believe that you are one of the elect that God decided to save and didn't pass you by.



I get my assurance from the Word of God and not by any confidence in self or man. I rejoice in the the mercies of God and I rejoice in the the righteousness wrath of God. To hate or despise either of these attributes in God, is to hate and despise God Himself. I'm happy in the God of my salvation, and His beauty and holiness has ravished my heart. Hallelujah!

Quote:
I am not happy people are going to hell when Christ paid such a high price of his own precious blood.



If you don't like hell and God sending sinners to Hell, your problem is not with me. Your problem is with the God of the Bible.

PSALM 69
"[20] Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. [21] They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. [22] Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. [23] Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. [24] Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. [25] Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. [26] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. [27] Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. [28] Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." -Psalms 69:20-28

PSALM 109
"[7] When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. [8] Let his days be few; and let another take his office. [9] Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. [10] Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places. [11] Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour. [12] Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children. [13] Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out. [14] Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out. [15] Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth. [16] Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart. [17] As he loved cursing, so let it come unto him: as he delighted not in blessing, so let it be far from him. [18] As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones. [19] Let it be unto him as the garment which covereth him, and for a girdle wherewith he is girded continually. [20] Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul." -Psalms 109:7-20





_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/16 0:51Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?

Quote:
True believing must be done in love to God. "faith which worketh by love." (Gal 5:6) You cannot believe on Jesus when you hate Him.



I have asked this question before. Is it necessary for us to love God before we may have faith in Him?

Consider this point: "those who are forgiven much, love much" therefore if this is true then we must be forgiven before we can love. That is to say, we are forgiven before we have faith. Do you think this is an accurate statement?


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/16 0:52Profile





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