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Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?

This is The Frustrated Trinity

The Father Elects (before the foundation of the world) a specific amount of People from every Nation that He knows will persevere unto the end (Rev 5:9). The Father does this with the intention and purpose of Saving His Elect and them only. Hallelujah! The Father succeeds in his purpose and intention.

The Father attempts to save this amount:

*_________________________*

The Son dies for every single individual soul universally when He suffered the wrath of God for our sins at the cross. The Son intercedes and prays for every single man universally. The Son does this with the intention and purpose of saving every single soul universally that ever lived. Tragically, the Son fails in accomplishing what He intended and purposed to do through His death. Many of the Son's prayers did not avail to what He intended. The Son tried. But, he could not cause His own prayers to be accomplished. Let us remember that Jesus himself said, "What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them."

The Son attempts to save this amount, but he fails:
*________________________________________________*

The Spirit Calls and tries to regenerate as many people as He can. However, He is only able to regenerate those whom the Father elected. But, He still wants to save more than the Father Elected... So he tries to regenerate more, But tragically He fails. He succeeds in at least trying to save more than the Father Elects. But, He fails in Regenerating as many as the Son Died for. [for clarification] The Spirit fails in regenerating more than the Father elected and He fails in regenerating as many as the Son died for.

The Spirit Succeeds in His attempts to at least try and save this amount:

*_____________________________________*


As you can imagine, this is a frustrated trinity. The Father is telling the Son and the Spirit, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". The Son is telling the Father, "Please O please Father, hear my prayer and save more than you elected. Please save them all! Please forgive more than you elected." The Spirit is telling the Son, "I'll try to save all of them. But, I just can't get as many people as i need to preach the gospel to every creature. I'll try to save those who hear the gospel. But, I just can't regenerate them unless they give me permission."

This is the frustrated trinity.

To correct all from this error, I shall first present to you a song by Shai Linne.

Mission Accomplished written by shai linne


Verse 1


Here’s a controversial subject that tends to divide

For years it’s had Christians lining up on both sides

By God’s grace, I’ll address this without pride

The question concerns those for whom Christ died

Was He trying to save everybody worldwide?

Was He trying to make the entire world His Bride?

Does man’s unbelief keep the Savior’s hands tied?

Biblically, each of these must be denied

It’s true, Jesus gave up His life for His Bride

But His Bride is the elect, to whom His death is applied

If on judgment day, you see that you can’t hide

And because of your sin, God’s wrath on you abides

And hell is the place you eternally reside

That means your wrath from God hasn’t been satisfied

But we believe His mission was accomplished when He died

But how the cross relates to those in hell?

Well, they be saying:


Lord knows He tried (8x)


Verse 2


Father, Son and Spirit: three and yet one

Working as a unit to get things done

Our salvation began in eternity past

God certainly has to bring all His purpose to pass

A triune, eternal bond no one could ever sever

When it comes to the church, peep how they work together

The Father foreknew first, the Son came to earth

To die- the Holy Spirit gives the new birth

The Father elects them, the Son pays their debt and protects them

The Spirit is the One who resurrects them

The Father chooses them, the Son gets bruised for them

The Spirit renews them and produces fruit in them

Everybody’s not elect, the Father decides

And it’s only the elect in whom the Spirit resides

The Father and the Spirit- completely unified

But when it comes to Christ and those in hell?

Well, they be saying:


Lord knows He tried (8x)


Verse 3


My third and final verse- here’s the situation

Just a couple more things for your consideration

If saving everybody was why Christ came in history

With so many in hell, we’d have to say He failed miserably

So many think He only came to make it possible

Let’s follow this solution to a conclusion that’s logical

What about those who were already in the grave?

The Old Testament wicked- condemned as depraved

Did He die for them? C’mon, behave

But worst of all, you’re saying the cross by itself doesn’t save

That we must do something to give the cross its power

That means, at the end of the day, the glory’s ours

That man-centered thinking is not recommended

The cross will save all for whom it was intended

Because for the elect, God’s wrath was satisfied

But still, when it comes to those in hell

Well, they be saying:


Lord knows He tried (8x)

Shai Linne's blog and Myspace page:
http://lyricaltheology.blogspot.com/
http://www.myspace.com/shailinne
(I added this next link as a fourth edit addition for your edification)
Shai Linne on MML
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPZlzDTdSsE

I further encourage you to study the scriptures. Here are some scripture lists for you on the biblical trinity.

http://www.eschatology.com/predestination.html
http://www.eschatology.com/death.html
http://www.eschatology.com/husband.html

Predestination and Calling - Spurgeon
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0241.htm

Doctrines of Grace – Categorized Scripture List
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/gracelist.html

For anyone one desire to study these matters by dealing with text that someone might use to support the frustrated trinity, here is an excellent resource by John Gill.

The Cause of God and Truth by John Gill
http://www.lgmarshall.org/Gill/gilltitlepage.htm

Side Note: If any one denies that election and predestination are in the bible, you are denying the bible. All Christians believe that these doctrines are in the bible. However, there is a disagreement on How these truths should be taught.

Blessings to the glory of God!
-Abraham

EDIT: Spell check and sentence structure corrections

EDIT ADDITIONS:

I want you to be edified by Truth

1. I have found great confidence to pray for souls when I look to my Lord who succeeds in His prayers. I have found great discouragement to prayer for souls when I look to a frustrated and false jesus that cannot accomplish the prayers that he prays.

2. I have found great joy in God to walk in love and holiness when I meditate on the Eternal Electing Love of the Father. By the mercies of God, I present my body as a living sacrifice to Him. I found great confidence in God concerning my missionary endeavors. For I serve the God of the bible who promises that He will save many sinners out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. I don't just hope He will save people in a specific nation. I know that he will. And since by the grace of God I'm not loveless and careless towards the lost, I seek to save them as my savior does with my confidence in the power of God to bring in a people from every nation. Hallelujah!!!

3. I have found great peace in trusting in the Spirits power to mercifully and powerfully regenerate whomsoever He wills.

(Edit addition 3 - placed here to add to the edification section)
4. When I held my first born baby Isaac in my arms and kissed him goodbye, I would not have found peace that surpasses understanding and I would not have worshiped the Lord in that hour, unless I had known the Sovereign God of the Bible who is Sovereign over all things. My son died almost 4 weeks ago and I wont let anyone discourage me that God was not Sovereign over it. I rejoice that God has ordained this trail in my life to conform me into His image and to manifest His Son in me. He is not a frustrated God who cannot accomplish His purposes. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:28-30)

Ashley and I were given the blessing to hold Isaac and Worship the Lord for His Sovereign goodness towards us. We trust that He ordained this to conform us to His image.

This moment has been brought to me by the cross of Christ, by the love of Christ, and by the goodness of Christ. Let us rejoice and be glad in it! Brothers and sisters, I pray that the Lord may take us deeper into the waters of His grace. There is Peace in Christ that surpasses understanding of which I have found myself hungering after even more as a result of this event in our lives.

Please read this portion of the sermon by John Piper that God has used to strengthen me in this trial:

"I met a young woman from India a few years ago who thanked me for the truth she had heard in something I had said and asked if she could write to me. When she was born a treatable disease was misdiagnosed, and she was paralyzed. By age 14 she had had 21 surgeries and was cruelly treated by other children calling her "crippled." She became a Christian in high school. She married, had four miscarriages, and her second child died in her husband's arms at two months. She closed the letter,

I have read many books on suffering, but they are often so man-centered and... nullify, or at least diminish the glory, majesty and sovereignty of God. It is radical thinking to say that God wills and ordains our suffering and not just passively allows it, hoping to make the best of it for us. As I have grown in my walk, I can see that nothing in this world happens apart from the sovereign will of God."

EDIT ADDITIONS 2:

For anyone who desires to search the scriptures concerning God's Sovereign Grace, here are some links to helpful resources for you.

Steven Lawson's book and Audio series on the Foundation of Grace will take you on a journey through the entire Bible. This one is the best resource, because our foundation needs to be in the word of God.

[url=http://abrahamjuliot.blogspot.com/2008/11/foundations-of-grace-long-line-of-godly.html]Foundations of Grace: A Long Line of Godly Men by Steven Lawson[/url]

You can watch a short video of Steven Lawson about his book. He talks about his book, Foundations of Grace, and why he decided to write it.
[url=http://www.ligonier.org/media_player.php?tabID=1&id=005]Watch the Interview[/url]


[url=http://abrahamjuliot.blogspot.com/2008/07/sermon-series-on-doctrines-of-grace.html]
Sermon Series on The Doctrines of Grace[/url]


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/15 17:19Profile
sojourner7
Member



Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re: Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?

I had not heard of a "frustrated trinity"
before. Not quite sure what you mean by
this post.

The God I serve directs and orders all things
after the counsel of His truth. The God I
serve reigns over death, hell, sin, and the
world. His will is always accomplished.

His Son gave His all, His life as an offering
and sacrifice that satisfies God fully by His
obedience and righteousness. When He cried out
"It is finished" from the cross, He knew our
salvation and redemption was secured and
His mission was fulfilled!!


_________________
Martin G. Smith

 2008/11/15 17:36Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

My purpose for posting this, is for the cause of God and His truth. It's a crime to not correct our brothers and sisters from error.



Quote:
The God I serve directs and orders all things after the counsel of His truth. The God I serve reigns over death, hell, sin, and the word. His will is always accomplished. His Son gave His all, His life as an ofering and sacrifice that satisfies God fully by His obedience and righteousness. When He cried out "It is finished" from the cross, He knew our salvation and redemption was secured and His mission was fulfilled!!



Amen.


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/15 17:47Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?

Quote:
Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?


No!


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2008/11/15 18:10Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re: Do you serve a Frustrated Trinity?

Quote:

Abe_Juliot wrote:
This is The Frustrated Trinity



But still, when it comes to those in hell

Well, they be saying:


Lord knows He tried (8x)





Brother all those in hell will not be saying anything like this, because the only reason why they would be there is because they rejected the grace of God in Christ Jesus. What the 1st Adam lost, the second man from heaven regained for us. We either believe God or we don’t. God does not force anyone to believe and neither does he force anyone not to believe.

I must say this reasoning you have posted does not edify God nor his creation.

 2008/11/15 18:17Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
God does not force anyone to believe and neither does he force anyone not to believe.



I would agree to not say that God forces. However, He does cause. The word force is void of any reference to mercy and providence.

He does Cause things to come to pass.

Spurgeon Said this,

When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul - when they were as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron; and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown all of a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God ... I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, I ascribe my change wholly to God. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, Banner of Truth, pp. 164-165).

We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will ever be constrained toward Christ. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p.139).

I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.

I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34).

A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 10, p. 309).

I question whether we have preached the whole counsel of God, unless predestination with all its solemnity and sureness be continually declared. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 6, p. 26).

Quote:
I must say this reasoning you have posted does not edify God nor his creation.



The question should not be does this edify everyone. For when you begin to exalt the God of the bible, some of the most good looking carnal church members will cry out against you and say, "That's not my God, I don't serve Him!"

Not everyone is edified by truth.

The question should be, is this biblical and does it glorify the God of the bible.

Truth will edify us if we are humble before our God.

You should be edified by the truth that God is not frustrated.

1. I have found great confidence to pray for souls when I look to my Lord who succeeds in His prayers. I have found great discouragement to prayer for souls when I look to a frustrated and false jesus that cannot accomplish the prayers that he prays.

2. I have found great joy in God to walk in love and holiness when I meditate on the Eternal Electing Love of the Father. By the mercies of God, I present my body as a living sacrifice to Him. I found great confidence in God concerning my missionary endeavors. For I serve the God of the bible who promises that He will save many sinners out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. I don't just hope He will save people in a specific nation. I know that he will. And since by the grace of God I'm not loveless and careless towards the lost, I seek to save them as my savior does with my confidence in the power of God to bring in a people from every nation. Hallelujah!!!

3. I have found great peace in trusting in the Spirits power to mercifully and powerfully regenerate whomsoever He wills.


Edit: spell check


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/15 18:45Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
Brother all those in hell will not be saying anything like this, because the only reason why they would be there is because they rejected the grace of God in Christ Jesus.



Their sin is the primary cause of them being in hell. However, God justly chose to not have mercy on them and He graciously chose to have mercy on sinners by granting us a new heart, a new will, with godly affections, and Faith in the finished work of Christ. However, many sinners have a false understanding of God. They think that He tries to save people and that He is limited because they won't give Him permission.

Atheist take great pride in believing that they can frustrate the purposes of God to save them. The false view that God is not Sovereign over the human will, brings joy to the pride of man. Man falsely feels that God is in man's sovereign hands.

The phrase "Lord knows he tried." is a form of sin that prideful man mocks God with.

Edit: Sentence structure corrections


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/15 19:09Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1090
Germany NRW

 Re:

Dear Abe,

Ok, I got it, it is about Calvinism; one of those endless and fruitless debates that end up in strive and contesting each others salvation.

Would you consider to read Dave Hunt's or David Servant's essay about Calvinism?
http://www.shepherdserve.org/calvinism.htm

narrowpath

 2008/11/15 19:11Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

Abe_Juliot wrote:

I would agree to not say that God forces. However, He does cause. The word force is void of any reference to mercy and providence.




What conclusions have you come to concerning the reason he causes some to believe and others not to.

The scripture says whosoever that believeth. The bible also says that God will have all men to be saved.

The grace of God is received by faith. I don't see how one can truly magnify the grace of God by accusing him of not willing to cause some to believe. I will not accuse God of wanting some of his creation to be born just to go to hell.

 2008/11/15 19:12Profile
Abe_Juliot
Member



Joined: 2008/5/11
Posts: 129
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:
Dear Abe, Ok, I got it, it is about Calvinism; one of those endless and fruitless debates that end up in strive and contesting each others salvation. Would you consider to read Dave Hunt's or David Servant's essay about Calvinism? http://www.shepherdserve.org/calvinism.htm



Let it be known that you brought up Calvinism. I'm declaring scriptural truths and I have not even mentioned John Calvin. Please don't change the subject into a debate about John Calvin. I work at a bible college with a huge library of books on Calvinism and I have held Dave's book in my hands and I don't want to read it or discuss it.

Edit Addition:

Why do I not want to bring Dave Hunt into the thread?

http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=dave+hunt&B1=Go


_________________
Abraham Juliot

 2008/11/15 19:15Profile





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