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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What the Early Christians Believed About the FREE WILL & PREDESTINATION

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Miccah
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Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:


TaylorOtwell wrote:

Quote:



I would submit that the vast majority of problems in the professing church lamented on SermonIndex spring from Arminian theology.




Wow! :-?


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Christiaan

 2008/11/14 13:20Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

I knew that would kind of raise some eyebrows; however, I didn't just spit that out without thinking about it. I have put a lot of thought into the problems in the professing church and have seriously found most of them to be related to a lack of understanding of the Biblical sovereignty of God.

Grace to you,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/14 13:28Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
I knew that would kind of raise some eyebrows; however, I didn't just spit that out without thinking about it. I have put a lot of thought into the problems in the professing church and have seriously found most of them to be related to a lack of understanding of the Biblical sovereignty of God.

Grace to you,
Taylor




I also have thought hard on this, and i think most problems come from the fact man has no responsibility, because of all the faulty doctrines that flooded the world afterthe reformation, some doctrines teach one cant lose their salvation.

So this has created a mass of people professing christ but live just as the world. So the bad state of the "church" so called, is more right to lay at Lutherand Calvins feet. Not Arminus.

But even here will the discussion go on forever.

I for one, will follow those who died for their faith, and not the ones that killed those who disagreed with them.

As for SI, it is not calvinism or arminianism or Gods grace or whateverthat is the problem,

it is people that is the problem, we are to little like Jesus.

I think Jesus could have fellowshiped both with Calvin and arminius without having "problems".


But anyhow, Jesus preached if any man will come, so I will continue to follow that.


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/11/14 13:35Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Thank you for your response.

All "Calvinists" believe that any man that comes to Christ will be saved.

The Puritans weren't called Puritans because they were so stricly conscience of pleasing God. They were also all strict Calvinist. There is no merit to the claim that Reformed theology, correctly held, breeds ungodliness.

You're right, the dicussion here could go on forever, and there is really no point in continuing on this that topic, since it is not the point of the thread, and I don't wish to distract from the original topic at hand, forgive me if I already have.

Grace to you,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/14 13:49Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I would submit that the vast majority of problems in the professing church lamented on SermonIndex spring from Arminian theology.



I amen your words here brother.

May I also add that the Arminian/Semi-Pelagian view of man also leads to much "law" preaching. This comes across as "12 steps to financial freedom", "18 ways to better your marriage" etc.

In this type of preaching, man is thrust upon himself to be his own "savior". There is little mention of sin, so man doesn't need the Savior from sin, he only needs a better example or moral instructor(funny, that is how Pelagius viewed Christ as well).

Since there is an assumption of the Gospel, the Gospel goes on denied as "the power of God for salvation" and man becomes his own way of salvation. Sadly this produces either self-righteousness or despair. This sadly is the state of the vast majority of Christians in America.

I highly recommend "Christless Christianity" by Michael Horton. It is a wonderful look into this dilemma. There is a book and a DVD of this for those who have trouble finishing a book(like me).


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patrick heaviside

 2008/11/14 14:03Profile
HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:

I would submit that the vast majority of problems in the professing church lamented on SermonIndex spring from Arminian theology.




I would respectfully disagree.


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Jordan

 2008/11/14 14:08Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:

I would submit that the vast majority of problems in the professing church lamented on SermonIndex spring from Arminian theology.




I would respectfully disagree.



I agree

:-P

Welll both sides has some bad things, but you know both RL and TO thatthe "arminian" side has some very good and godly preachers that lived and did not preach three steps to financial freedom.

or the other worthless things we see.

We have many on this site, take Tozer, Ravenhill , Sparks, Art Katz , John Wesley ect ect ect.


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/11/14 14:53Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

I completely agree. Many fiery preachers on this site would not agree with these views of salvation. Also, I respect both of your opinions that I am wrong in that matter about Arminianism being the root of much of the problems in the professing church.

However, I think one thing that is often neglected is that being godly involves believing right things about God as well as living holy. They are connected. One cannot simply believe right things about God, live wicked, and be properly called godly. Likewise, one cannot believe all sorts of wrong things about God, live very morally, and then be called godly. I think it is a dangerous habit to fall into either extreme. Often it seems like we excuse false doctrine if the preacher is moral, and then proclaim them godly, because we assume living right must be more important than believing right.

I don't mean to make either living holy and believing right things about God more important than the other, however, I think both should be properly weight when talking about godliness.

Thank you both for responding graciously and discussing these things.

Grace to you,
Taylor


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/14 15:08Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Quote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:

I would submit that the vast majority of problems in the professing church lamented on SermonIndex spring from Arminian theology.




I would respectfully disagree.



I agree

:-P





LOL :-)

I would like to add some more quotes:

“In the beginning, He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing the truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God.” (Justin Martyr)

"God's will is especially obeyed by the free will of good men." (Clement of Alexandria)

"Believing and obeying are in our own power." (Clement of Alexandria)

"Nor will he who is saved be saved against his will, for he is not inanimate. but above all, he will speed to salvation voluntarily and of free choice." (Clement of Alexandria)

"Choice depended on the man as being free. But the gift depended on God as the Lord. And He gives to those who are willing, are exceedingly earnest, and who ask. So their salvation becomes their own. For God does not compel." (Clement of Alexandria)

EDIT: Adding a few more. :-)

When you are desirous to do well, God is also ready to assist you." (Ignatious)


"Man was made with a free will...on account of his capacity of obeying or disobeying God. For this was the meaning of the gift of free will." (Methodius)


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Jordan

 2008/11/14 15:15Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Taylor,

Thank you for your gracious reply too. I appreciate your response and agree that we must have a right view of God and be walking holy before Him.

I would also like to say that I have a great respect for both calvinistic and arminian preachers. That is, as long as they are preaching the true gospel, etc. :-) I just take exception to different parts of the TULIP, but this doesn't mean I take all of the arminian beliefs either.


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Jordan

 2008/11/14 15:28Profile





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