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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
savannah wrote:

If all that are in Adam are so due to their birth and not by their choice or will, and none object to this truth and bring a charge against God, neither should any bring a charge against God when He places any in Christ by the new birth which is from above and as the wind, and not by the choice or will of any but His Own Will by which He begat us. (see James 1:18)

We must choose to be in Christ.

[b]Romans 5:18[/b] [color=990000]Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.[/color]
Lets follow the analogy:
as by
even so by
[b]1.[/b]
by the offence
by the righteousness

[b]2.[/b]
of one
of one

[b]3.[/b]
judgment came
the free gift came

[b]4.[/b]
upon all men
upon all men

[b]5.[/b]
to condemnation
unto justification of life

Therefore, in whatever way that judgment cam upon all men, so also justification came upon all men.
If Justification is not forced upon all men, then is condemnation not forced upon all men.
However, both have come upon all men: condemnation through Adam, and justification through Jesus.
It is the individuals choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.
If you live in sin, which all men will choose to do starting with Adam, you will be condemned.
If you live in God, which some men will choose to do by Jesus, you will be justified.

[b]Romans 5:19 [color=990000]For as by[/b] one man's disobedience many were made sinners, [b]so by[/b] the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.[/color]
notice the word ''[b]as by[/b]'' & "[b]so by[/b]"
This is a comparison of the two.
I put brackets to for better understanding;

[color=990000]Just as through the one mans disobedience,[/color] [in like manner of disobedience] [color=990000]the many were zmade sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, [/color][in like manner of obedience] [color=990000]so shall the many be made righteous.[/color]

It must be this way, otherwise you get universal salvation.
If the many were made sinners involuntarily without choice, the many must be made righteous involuntarily without choice.

 2008/11/16 17:42Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


One should read the whole of Ezekiel 18 to see what God says about mans choice. God have no pleasure in the death of the wiked.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/11/17 1:37Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Logic,

Where in scripture does it support the things you are saying about God? Here are some of your quotes:

“Correct, Adam was created with "sinful flesh".
That is why he sinned.”

“The flesh never had goodness to start from.
It is because of the flesh that Adam & Eve fell”

 2008/11/17 9:47Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
rbanks wrote:
Logic,

Where in scripture does it support the things you are saying about God? Here are some of your quotes:

“Correct, Adam was created with "sinful flesh".
That is why he sinned.”

“The flesh never had goodness to start from.
It is because of the flesh that Adam & Eve fell”

Where is it that I am saying things about God?
These are about Adam & the flesh.

Anyway, we must consider how or why Adam sinned.
I've posted this before, but I will again:
The cause of Adams sin is the flesh:
[b]1John 2:16[/b] [color=990000]For all that is in the world,[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the flesh[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the eyes[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/color]
[b]Gen 3:6[/b] [color=990000]And when the woman saw that the tree was[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]good for food,
and that it was[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/color]

Now, since Adam sinned because of his flesh, we may conclude that the flesh was the same before Adam sinned as it is now after Adam sinned.

We also see that Jesus had "sinful flesh" in Romans 8:3; Even though Jesus never sinned as Adam eventually did.

 2008/11/17 11:39Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:

We also see that Jesus had "sinful flesh" in Romans 8:3; Even though Jesus never sinned as Adam eventually did.



How can you say what the bible does not say so easily without any conviction whatsoever? The true Lord Jesus Christ never had and never will have sinful flesh and the bible does not say it either. The bible says he came in the likeness of sinful flesh but the difference is that his blood came from His Father God. Joseph was not his biological father. The Word became flesh and there is nothing sinful about the Word. I would fear to say anything like Jesus came in {What you said he came in), no sir brother, Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh but not in sinful flesh.

Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

I pray that you are not on the border line of heresy and only hope that you would repent of even saying such a thing about the precious Son of God.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Ex 28:36 And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.

Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Lu 23:22 And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.

Lu 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Lu 23:47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Ac 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

Ac 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Re 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

 2008/11/17 12:39Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Do you even know what the word sinful means? What bible are you reading?

The definition of the word sinful is- Characterized by iniquity; wicked because it is believed to be a sin or having committed unrighteous acts.

God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh - Did that which the law could not do; i.e. purchased pardon for the sinner, and brought every believer into the favor of God. And this is effected by the incarnation of Christ: He, in whom dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily, took upon him the likeness of sinful flesh, that is, a human body like ours, but not sinful as ours; and for sin, και περι αμαρτιας , and as a Sacrifice for Sin, (this is the sense of the word in a multitude of places), condemned sin in the flesh - condemned that to death and destruction which had condemned us to both. –Clark

The word likeness is to be linked, not with flesh, but with sinful flesh; he had true and real flesh, but he had only the appearance and likeness of sinful flesh: see 2Co 5:21; Heb 4:15; 7:26; 1Pe 1:19. –Poole

The whole drift of the passage, as well as , requires this conception); and he sent him into the very sphere of things that required redemption, that by actual participation in it he might personally redeem it; for he sent him in likeness of our "flesh of sin." It is not said in flesh of sin; for that might imply sin in Christ's individual humanity: but, on the other hand, "in likeness" () does not imply docetism, as though Christ's humanity were not real; for stress is evidently laid on the fact that it was in our actual human flesh that he "condemned" sin. The phrase appears to mean the same as what is expressed in Heb 2:17 and Heb 4:15: -Pulpit


Look it up please, and brother, if you still feel the same way then I am sorry for you. I will just bow out of this thread and maybe someone else can help you, I just don't know. I pray to God that I will never believe anything unholy about my Savior whom I owe, I owe, I owe nothing but the utmost respect and loyalty.

 2008/11/17 13:15Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
rbanks wrote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:

We also see that Jesus had "sinful flesh" in Romans 8:3; Even though Jesus never sinned as Adam eventually did.

How can you say what the bible does not say so easily without any conviction whatsoever?
The true Lord Jesus Christ never had and never will have sinful flesh and the bible does not say it either.

Romans 8:3b [color=990000]...God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh...[/color]
Phil 2:7b-8a [color=990000]...and was made in the likeness of men...[/color]
...And being found in fashion as a man,
Hebrews 5:2 [color=990000]...since he himself is also being subject to weakness.[/color]

If Jesus was not made like mankind, He could not be the perfect priest.

Quote:
The bible says he came in the likeness of sinful flesh but the difference is that his blood came from His Father God. Joseph was not his biological father.

The only thing which tge virgin birth telss us is that He was not created as man is created.
Furthermore, there is nothingbabout mankinds blood that has anythingbtobdo with sin.
Blood represents life.
Jesus' blood represents a life without choosing to sin.

Quote:
v

There is never said anything about Adam's flesh being corrupted.

The word became flesh as all flesh, not "bacame unique flesh"

Quote:
I would fear to say anything like Jesus came in {What you said he came in), no sir brother, Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh but not in sinful flesh.

What is the difference?

Quote:
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

"separate from sinners" does not mean that He came to Earth in separate kind of flesh, if He did, He could not be the perfect Hight Priest.

Quote:
I pray that you are not on the border line of heresy and only hope that you would repent of even saying such a thing about the precious Son of God.

I pray that you would understand the logical conclusion to your view.
And stop accusing me of heresy.
No need to repent, because I have Scriptural suport with out taking anything out of context.

Quote:
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Ex 28:6 And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Lu 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Lu 23:22 And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.
Lu 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Lu 23:47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.
Joh 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Ac 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Ac 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Re 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.

Without commentary of what your telling me with these verses, I am left to my own understanding of these verses means, which does not go against my point, nor do they confirm anything you said.

 2008/11/17 13:23Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
rbanks wrote:
Do you even know what the word sinful means? What bible are you reading?

The definition of the word sinful is- Characterized by iniquity; wicked because it is believed to be a sin or having committed unrighteous acts.

I know what the word "sinful" means, and all flesh, including Jesus had the ability to sin.
Sin is not IN the flesh as you might be thinking.

What's matter which Bible I use?

Quote:
God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh - Did that which the law could not do; i.e. purchased pardon for the sinner, and brought every believer into the favor of God. And this is effected by the incarnation of Christ: He, in whom dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily, took upon him the likeness of sinful flesh, that is, a human body like ours, but not sinful as ours;

Your mistake is thinking that the flesh, or the body is actually sinful in & of its self.

It's what we do with our flesh which makes it sinful or not.

Quote:
and for sin, êáé ðåñé áìáñôéáò , and as a Sacrifice for Sin, (this is the sense of the word in a multitude of places), condemned sin in the flesh - condemned that to death and destruction which had condemned us to both. -Clark

The word likeness is to be linked, not with flesh, but with sinful flesh; he had true and real flesh, but he had only the appearance and likeness of sinful flesh: see 2Co 5:21; Heb 4:15; 7:26; 1Pe 1:19. –Poole

Again, our flesh, or the body is actually sinful in & of its self, it's what we do with our flesh which makes it sinful or not.

The verse should actually read as:
...[color=990000]God sending his own Son in the form of flesh[/color] [with the affections and lusts](Galatians 5:24) [color=990000]and concerning that sin[/color](the unlawful affections and lusts of the flesh) [color=990000]God condemned it in the flesh:[/color]

Quote:
The whole , requires this conception); and he sentdrift of the passage, as well as him into the very sphere of things that required redemption, that by actual participation in it he might personally redeem it; for he sent him in likeness of our "flesh of sin." It is not said in flesh of sin; for that might imply sin in Christ's individual humanity: but, on the other hand, "in likeness" ) does not imply docetism, as though Christ's humanity were not( real; for stress is evidently laid on the fact that it was in our actual human flesh that he "condemned" sin. The phrase appears to mean the same as what is expressed in Heb 2:17 and Heb 4:15: -Pulpit


Look it up please, and brother, if you still feel the same way then I am sorry for you.

Don't be like that.
I don't want your pity.
It ain't like I’ve never studied this before & I'm jumping to conclusions.

Quote:
I will just bow out of this thread and maybe someone else can help you, I just don't know. I pray to God that I will never believe anything unholy about my Savior whom I owe, I owe, I owe nothing but the utmost respect and loyalty.

I pray that you understand what I'm saying, which would mean you agree, because your understanding about sin & the flesh are wrong.

You think that the flesh has sin in it to be sinful, if so, you would be right, Jesus would not have "sinful flesh.

However, the fact is, that the flesh is the weakness of man which he gives into for sin.
That is what is meant by "sinful flesh"
If you see it that way, you would agree.

 2008/11/17 14:03Profile









 Re:

Hi Logic, it seems that the length is my fault anyway. I've been trying to condense all of this. Some of these comments I'm going to put up here separate from the rest because they have more to do with language and hopefully we can agree on them or leave them out of the main discussion.


16. (Gen 3:22)
Gen 3:22 cannot be overturned. But the point is granted, if by knowing evil you mean choosing and doing evil. This is just language stuff.


2. (will)

Quote:
benjoseph: The flesh, soul, and spirit of a man each have their own will.
Logic: Man has one will. The flesh is not sentient, can not have a will. It gives pleasure because of the senses. The flesh is amoral, it takes pleasure in what ever, good or bad, for it has no mind. The Soul and Spirit are indistinguishable of each other. The soul and spirit conceders the pleasure which the flesh gives and which pleasure is right and which is wrong. The soul and spirit wills between what is right and wrong.

More language stuff. Our flesh is definitely not sentient - try to think of "will" as also meaning desires and not always requiring cognitive decision-making as in the case of the soul. I don't think it would be misusing the word and neither do bible translators who know english a lot better than I do hopefully. Flesh has will - John 1:13. Its will is also distinct from man's will - John 1:13 I'll come back to the soul and spirit in the rest of it. I just wanted to clear up the word "will" and the point from #16 above.


6. (will)
Quote:
b: Therefore the wills of the three parts of man were good just as God made them.
L: Remember, before Adam and Eve sinned, they willed to sin. So, one can not say that the "will" was either good or bad, but how one uses the will.

Same language problem. God called non-sentient things good.


I'm still working on the rest as quickly as I can. Thanks for being patient. - Ben

 2008/11/17 15:09









 Re:

41. (conscience)

Quote:
b: The conscience is in agreement with the spirit as a witness to testify to man's sinfulness.
L: Not perfectly. One's conscience can be wrong, or even unlearned. See 1Corinth 8:7-13 & Rom 14:1-3

Thank you for pointing that out. I wasn't really understanding the conscience very well at all. So just as man becomes free to choose good by hearing the Truth so is the conscience strengthened and freed by the Truth as it grows in faith. Do you agree?

 2008/11/17 18:53





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