| Re: Apostolic garbage.....|
God help us, please forgive my directness but this kind of stuff just nauseates me and has no business even being placed in print....I can never stress enough that its "NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!!" never was never will be---it just makes me wanna scream....it amazes me the complexity that man will assume it trying to generate Gods kingdom (via there own greed) and downright misunderstanding of the word of God--I bet Paul is forever saying "what was I thinking" when I wrote that statement about the five fold ministry ---how do we put the breaks on this nonsense....how do we do it? :-(
| 2004/7/27 23:52||Profile|
If and when general persecution comes, I think this sort of stuff will dry up right quick.
Possibly, though, the persecution will only be against "fundamentalist" (that is, Biblical) Christians that refuse to fit a certain PC mold, so those who are truly only in it for the money (not all the Prosperity types, but some of them) will need only remove the offending parts from their message and the world would let them merrily upon their money-making way.
If someone's really all that interested in making a lot of money, I'd suggest the business world, Christianity isn't really for you.
As for the article, my problem with it would be the utter lack of Biblical support for the supplier-manager-distributor-whatever scheme, even the one passage cited for support doesn't fit that (the Israelites simply took a bunch of stuff with them, not a lot of sophistication involved).
| 2004/7/28 0:54||Profile|
Ex-England colony of Australia
While sitting and recording old Finnish preaching I've heard a lot of very very good preaching but then reading from 2 Pet 2:1- it really hit me, no matter what preaching or no matter what warning we read, listen to or write nothing but nothing "beats" the Word of God when it comes to warn about falsities.
2Pe 2:1 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
The words, "arose false prophets" was okay but then "as among you also there shall be false teachers". I don't know how many times I've read this chapter but it has never hit me as much as last night, it truly is the false teachers time.
Reading more in that chapter it brings out what kind of heresy there will be among "you". It makes for very interesting reading if you don't see what it is that is wrong among the people that teach the teaching we are discussing and may I add, all the money preaching.Be discerning.
| 2004/7/28 3:05||Profile|
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
| Re: Apostolic wealth Transfer|
It makes for very interesting reading if you don't see what it is that is wrong among the people that teach the teaching we are discussing and may I add, all the money preaching.Be discerning.
I think what is really grieving is that I don't believe that this is done with the intention to mislead, or preach another gospel. In opening up the scriptures for truth and guidance how easy it must be to get caught up in fancy systems and formulas. To explain why something is not happening(which in this case is wealth transfer) lets teach on why it is not happening. Pulling one verse from the bible and building a whole [i]modus operandi[/i].
When the truth seems to have been assimalated there must always be something that catches our attention and keeps us interested. Little realising that the one thing to 'keep us interested' is the most beautiful being in the universe, Jesus.
More of a [i][color=FF0000]'deeper understanding of the ways of God'[/color][/i]. There must be some reason why we are not fulfilling the great commission?;-)
The leaders of Gods flock will have to give a huge account for what they have let into the church. I wonder if there is accountability at this level? I mean accountability, not just on moral and (sorry) financial level, but in the area of truth. Many well meaning church leaders who hold his opinion dear, will believe that this is what the Lord is saying to his church. I don't know what people do when they read such things, do they get all frantic and condemned at their short comings of not being a good supplier, manager, whatever?
If someone didn't know any better, that article may be the only prophetic voice that he hears for him or for his church. Sobering stuff!
| 2004/7/28 15:41||Profile|
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
| Fund-based vs. Donation-based|
I just want attention focussed on the core idea of the original article (see first post).
The idea is that when a financial gift is given to a Christian ministry, rather than use it towards the cash flow of the organisation, it is put into a [b][i]fund[/i][/b] managed by Christians. Through investments of these funds, [b][i]revenue[/i][/b] is generated, which in turn will be provided to the organisation.
I have known a well-off, but devoted, Christian who had instructed in his will to designate a large portion of his inheritance to be passed on to a special fund, which through its revenue finances several ministries that God has placed in his heart. I find his heart admirable.
Of course, the Bible did not provide specific instructions to do (or not to do) so. Nevertheless, I fail to see anything [i][b]inherently evil[/b][/i] in this practice (as long as the finances are dealt with properly and with transparency)?
| 2004/7/30 11:45||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
| Re: Fund-based vs. Donation-based|
If and when general persecution comes, I think this sort of stuff will dry up right quick. If someone's really all that interested in making a lot of money, I'd suggest the business world, Christianity isn't really for you.
Brother Keith I couldn't have said it better myself, I think the church of Jesus Christ in North America [b]needs[/b] persecution! another slant on that is that we are not being persecuted because we are not living [b]godly[/b] in Christ Jesus. Holiness and living as another breed of men, heavenly minded men of God in this world.
[b]2 Timothy 3:12[/b] - Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
I love the promises of God in the bible some man said there are over 7000 direct promises we can claim as blood bought children of God, how about this one above? 'shall suffer persecution' but notice the condition of the promise 'that will live godly'. EVERY promise of God has a condition.
Of course, the Bible did not provide specific instructions to do (or not to do) so. Nevertheless, I fail to see anything inherently evil in this practice (as long as the finances are dealt with properly and with transparency)?
"I brought up the fact that since 1992 we have been hearing from God, through respected prophets, that He desires to release great amounts of wealth to His people for the advance of His kingdom" - [b]Since when did God advance his kingdom through money?[/b]
[b]Acts 3:3-6[/b] Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us. And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
government of the church got into place on the foundation of apostles and prophets, which did occur beginning in 2001
This man is speaking of new apostles and prophets being setup across the world and having reign over certain localities and regions. This charismatic prophetic government that is being instituted I would say has nothing to do with God ordaination, these are men that are claimed authority on their own. The Church is so decieved that we cannot even realize what is happening and many are being deluded into this new form of Church government under the guise of spirit-filled Christianity.
One of my apostle friends
Where are the apostles I don't see them? Do you see anyone with the fervor and heart-ache spirituality as the Aposle Paul or Apostle James who desperatly are trying to defend the church and are burdened as in Child-birth for the entire body of Christ?
This whole article is spoken with prophetic spiritual authority and is said to have come from God, he uses terms and ideals that have been prophesied by so called prophets and set in place, The biblical example is very out of place and really there is no other scriptural support in any of his article describing this increase of mammon in the hands of Christians. It seems inticing and very ear tingling to hear some of the stories and examples he uses but really brother and sisters we cannot just want what seems good dare I say to the flesh but we need to seek after Gods will and His ways even as unappealing it may seem to the flesh and desires. The Apostle Paul would label this all as false and these Apostles and Prophets as False.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2004/7/30 14:24||Profile|
| Re: "Jhesus est amor meus," (Jesus is my love)|
"I brought up the fact that since 1992 we have been hearing from God, through respected prophets, that He desires to release great amounts of wealth to His people for the advance of His kingdom" - Since when did God advance his kingdom through money?
The Gospel has always spread the fastest under great persecution. The Church has also been purified over the centuries with great persecution. Under the unbelieving Jews, Nero, and then the ten great persecutions beginning with Domition and ending with Diocletion. Then there were the Lollards and the Lollard pit and a host of other times of persecution.
In one of the towers in London as one Christian was chained up and awaiting persecution or execution they scratched the words, ""Jhesus est amor meus," ("hay-soos-est-ahmore-meoss" or simply "Jesus is my love") on the wall. That was not birthed in the comfortable western Church- but under great distress of mind and body. As the proverb goes, a friend is born out of adversity- and sometimes our friendship with God is born in time of severe trial. He is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/7/30 14:53||Profile|
| Re: Fund-based vs. Donation-based|
Edited: 8 August 2004
In the interests of keeping this thread smaller, I have removed this post, and placed it in a new thread called What's so bad about money?.
The key point is that, if we are to take the Word of God literally, we can't avoid the fact that our management of money is pivotal to displaying our faithfulness to God.
Don't agree with me? Then read the article.:-)
| 2004/7/31 0:53||Profile|
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
| Re: Fund-based vs. Donation-based|
Well-written, in my opinion. Going back to my original question about "fund-based" or "donation-based" financial models, I understand what you wrote to mean that nothing is [i]inherently evil[/i] in either model, the most important thing is whether we are making best use of God's money in our role as God's stewards.
I guess you take more issue with the lingos that C. Peter Wagner had used. I am also not too comfortable with these lingos, however, I understand that:
1) Different groups and denominations will adopt many lingos and jargons that only the insiders understand. In this case, we are talking about a group associated with the Third Wave.
2) Your source indicates that the original writing was probably meant to be read by insiders. I am sure Wagner would have presented the same point very differently if he were to give a lecture at Fuller (where he used to be).
I would not have used terms like [i]prophets,[/i] [i]apostles,[/i] etc. myself. I guess I have simply filtered out these jargons, and was looking at his main point.
Basically, he was suggesting that ministries be supported by the revenues generated by dedicated investment funds managed by capable Christian professionals, rather than by using donations directly into their cashflow. I do not see any essential problem there.
As for your question, [i]"Since when did God advance his kingdom through money?"[/i] I respond, "Whenever God chooses to." God used wealth to his end too--Count Zinzendorf would not have sparked the Moravian movement if he weren't a noble who provided refuge to godly people.
In the context of the original article (see first post), the author is not saying anything close to the "wealth and health" gospel. He is not saying that people will get rich. He is simply saying that God will provide and supply money for Christian ministries (whether I agree with the "prophecies" of these "respected prophets" is quite another story).
[i]"The one [God] who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed and increase the harvest of your righteousness." 2 Cor. 9:10[/i]
| 2004/8/4 11:27||Profile|