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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : A different political action

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ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2899
Philadelphia PA

 Re: thank you Mike

Mike, thank you for what felt to me to be a gentle and patient response. I appreciate it Mike.



And thank you for the challenge to consider and examine the history of political appologies as you suggested. I think it is a fair challenge.




When I started this thread, I think I was responding to the historic moment of this election and wanting to see us as Christians respond in some way.


It probably was not the best suggestion I could have choosen. I'm sure it wasn't. Surely we do not need the Government to call us to prayer and fasting and repentance. Maybe it came to mind because it has some historic precedence. And that it might give broader attention and might help to get others to take seriously our desire for these things, reconciliation and to acknowledge the wrongs done.



Maybe, that was it at the most basic level, hoping to express to you all, my own desire, that we together would want to seek these things.


As I've thought about what such a day might look like over the last few days, different things have come to mind:


I've thought about 'black' congregations meeting with 'white' congregations and sharing the day in prayer and confession. What a beautifull thing it would be to see us washing each other's feet.


I've thought of a day when we might mourn together over the pain that was caused. Over the wounds that were inflicted. And the loss. Our loss toghether.


I've thought of a day when black and white people could seek God together to heal us and to heal the divisions in our land.


I've thought of a day when people, perhaps older now, would have the opportunity to confess wrongs they themself had done or perhaps held only in their heart, in a safe place among those that loved them.


And I've thought of a day when others in the nation that may still hold these things against the Church could begin to consider letting them go.




Thanks Mike,


Chris







_________________
The life of man is warfare upon the Earth.





Love never fails.

 2008/11/13 18:24Profile
PaulWest
Moderator



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3152
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I've thought about 'black' congregations meeting with 'white' congregations and sharing the day in prayer and confession. What a beautifull thing it would be to see us washing each other's feet.


You know, dear brother, this already happens among saints who are truly born-again. I am not looking to see entire congregations and demographics liberated, because God does not move upon congregations and demographics but upon individuals, He warms individual hearts and sets the individual captives free and does not brood over collective armies of mercenary soldiers.

America is not the church, brother. Congregations of blacks and whites sequestered within their own steeplehouses are the not the church either. The true church is comprised of Holy Spirit regenerated believers, far and few...but God networks them. When I was involved with prison ministry I met some dear black brothers in Christ and there was absolutely no animositiy or awkwardness for the ancient sins my white ancestors may have imposed upon their ancestors. This is because my black brothers and I are all ingrafted into the same Tree of Life which is Christ, and there are no ancient sins in Christ that still need to be repented of. All things have become new, void of generational curses (which is basically what this thread implies, minus the window dressing) and the the unatoned sins of our fathers; [i]individuals[/i] are set free from bondage, not groups of people within specific ethnicities. The references in Nehemiah and Ezra that propose the apology and public repentance in sackcloth and ashes for Israel's and Judah's sins can be interpreted at the microcosmic level for New Covenant believers in Christ repenting for the corporate sins of the body of Christ (witnessed by Christ's letters of rebuke to the churches in Revelation), but not a secular nation, no matter how much we feel the nation is question is represented by Christiandom.


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"It is an undoubted truth that every doctrine that comes from God leads to God; and that which doth not tend to promote holiness is not of God."

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 2008/11/13 18:43Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2899
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Brother Paul,


I realise that America is not the Church and that black and white people wash each other's feet. I've seen it. Done it.


But is that the point here brother Paul? That it happens in some places? Or that it doesn't happen in others.


But what would be wrong with meeting together for a day?




I would hope to be able to suggest something so simple without yet more objections.


_________________
The life of man is warfare upon the Earth.





Love never fails.

 2008/11/13 19:00Profile
PaulWest
Moderator



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3152
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
But what would be wrong with meeting together for a day?


There's nothing wrong with this at all; and I totally understand your heart here. It would work for some, instilling a very nice sentiment, but as far as engendering a move of God and effecting the spiritual clime of this nation, I'm not so sure it would bring the results you're looking for.

We're talking about generations removed, many generations. People today are generally disenfranchised from the things that went on in the 18th and early to mid 19th century in this nation. They don't even understand what they're supposed to apologize for, and truthfully, I don't understand either. I'm certainly not compelled by God to do anything like this on a social scale. The apology would therefore be given perfunctorily and accepted from the other side as such, juiceless and with no authority to transform life in a way that impacts the Kingdom of Heaven. Sorry to be so negative here. We are not called to be social reformers by virture of the soul, but to be disciples of Christ and lovers of the Word in Spirit. Jesus brought no social reform, nor did Paul nor did any of the early church fathers to the societies they lived in, but they did something much greater.


_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - Paul West

"It is an undoubted truth that every doctrine that comes from God leads to God; and that which doth not tend to promote holiness is not of God."

George Whitefield (1714-1770)

 2008/11/13 19:09Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2899
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
We are not called to be social reformers by virture of the techniques of the flesh, but to be disciples of Christ and lovers of the Word.




Prayer(James 5:16), fasting(Acts 14:23), and obedience to the word of God(Matthew 5:23-24).


What techniques of the flesh are you referring to?




EDIT


Paul could you qoute something I've written in this thread so I can tell exactly what I'm responding to? Thank you.


_________________
The life of man is warfare upon the Earth.





Love never fails.

 2008/11/13 19:24Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2899
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
People today are generally disenfranchised from the things that went on in the 18th and early to mid 19th century in this nation.





The following is from the House Resolution that was posted here:



[b]Whereas the system of de jure racial segregation known as “Jim Crow,” which arose in certain parts of the Nation following the Civil War to create separate and unequal societies for whites and African-Americans, was a direct result of the racism against persons of African descent engendered by slavery;

Whereas the system of Jim Crow laws officially existed into the 1960’s—a century after the official end of slavery in America—until Congress took action to end it, but the vestiges of Jim Crow continue to this day;

Whereas African-Americans continue to suffer from the consequences of slavery and Jim Crow—long after both systems were formally abolished—through enormous damage and loss, both tangible and intangible, including the loss of human dignity and liberty, the frustration of careers and professional lives, and the long-term loss of income and opportunity;[/b]


_________________
The life of man is warfare upon the Earth.





Love never fails.

 2008/11/13 19:32Profile
PaulWest
Moderator



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3152
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
What techniques of the flesh are you referring to?


Sorry Chris, I edited "flesh" to "soul" to avoid any confusion. A public apology to advance social reform is what I would call a product of the soul.
Quote:
Paul could you qoute something I've written in this thread so I can tell exactly what I'm responding to? Thank you.


I was just issuing a general comment on the gist of this thread. Nothing personal at all brother.


_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - Paul West

"It is an undoubted truth that every doctrine that comes from God leads to God; and that which doth not tend to promote holiness is not of God."

George Whitefield (1714-1770)

 2008/11/13 19:33Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2899
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Paul, alright, thank you for the clarification.



Quote:
A public apology to advance social reform is what I would a product of the soul.





Alright, I could see that. But how exactly are we to know what God might do through acts of humility?


EDIT


Also, shouldn't we value the worth of something like that as it is done unto God first?


_________________
The life of man is warfare upon the Earth.





Love never fails.

 2008/11/13 19:37Profile
PaulWest
Moderator



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3152
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
The following is from the House Resolution that was posted here:


Yes, brother, this is a house resolution. But to the regular person living in this nation in 2008, Jim Crow is of a bygone era, and the average person doesn't even know who or what "Jim Crow" was or is. I love colored folk, and I fellowship with them. Never once has this slavery issue and oppression been a factor or an influence upon our friendship. Those that are embittered will remain embittered despite what you or I do or say. They're angry with the government, Chris, with "the man" and basically want hand-outs and sympathy. These people need to get saved, brother, and not more soulish efforts at social reform that begin and end with man.


_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - Paul West

"It is an undoubted truth that every doctrine that comes from God leads to God; and that which doth not tend to promote holiness is not of God."

George Whitefield (1714-1770)

 2008/11/13 19:42Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2899
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Quote:
Yes, brother, this is a house resolution. But to the regular person living in this nation in 2008, Jim Crow is of a bygone era, and the average person doesn't even know who or what "Jim Crow" was or is. I love colored folk, and I fellowship with them. Never once has this slavery issue and oppression been a factor or an influence upon our friendship.





My wife, who is black, thinks that if someone painted their face black today it might start a riot.


I disagree with you brother Paul.


_________________
The life of man is warfare upon the Earth.





Love never fails.

 2008/11/13 19:47Profile





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