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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

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 Re:

I believe in predestination as taught IN the Bible BY the Holy Spirit....I don't really care how one says it. According to Romans 9: some INDIVIDUALS are "fitted to destruction", while other INDIVIDUALS are "afore prepared to glory".

That is predestinated SEED being chosen, called, and quickened into sons and daughters of God. He has no "mistakes". His seed is His seed. Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Satan's seed is satan's seed...beginning with Cain. Oh, dear, here we go....

 2008/10/30 23:18
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2046


 Re:

Would you please expound further upon this statement:

"I believe in predestination as taught IN the Bible BY the Holy Spirit..."

Also,why do you end your post thus:

"Oh, dear, here we go...."

 2008/10/31 0:12Profile









 Re:

Quote:

savannah wrote:
Would you please expound further upon this statement:

"I believe in predestination as taught IN the Bible BY the Holy Spirit..."

Also,why do you end your post thus:

"Oh, dear, here we go...."



I thought I did expond on it.

I ended like that because I'm a funny guy, I guess.

 2008/10/31 1:36
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

I just wanted to inject some additional thoughts here.

I believe that most who call themselves "Calvinist", perhaps even Spurgeon himself, would deny Calvin's teachings and call him a "hyper-calvinist".

It is my understanding, from Calvin's Institutes, that Calvin was a firm supralapsarian, double-predestinarian. God decreed the Fall, and creates the majority of mankind for the purpose of showing his power in destroying them, and his utter mercy to create others and save them. Calvin taught nothing of "passive" wrath, or leaving men to their own destruction, because they are sinners. But rather, that God from all eternity determined all men to be sinners destined for hell.

To account for the passages regarding God commanding all men everywhere to repent and other "non-Augustinian" passages, Calvin said there was a difference between God's true will and purpose, and His commands to men. So he commands that they not sin, but actually "wills" or decrees that they do.


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/11/11 16:48Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
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 Re:

It will be helpful to understand that just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the power [b]in and of themselves[/b] to keep the command.

For instance, "Lazarus come forth".


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/11 18:12Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
It will be helpful to understand that just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the power [b]in and of themselves[/b] to keep the command.

For instance, "Lazarus come forth".



This is so true brother Taylor! Without God we can not but without us he will not.

Here is how predestination works.

All who are in Christ by grace through faith are predestinated to eternal life.

All who are outside of Christ by their unbelief are predestinated to eternal damnation.

Every person who has reached the age of accountability before they were born of God was at one time predestinated to eternal damnation.

Predestination to eternal life is only in Christ to the one who has turned from himself to Christ in faith believing.

The unbeliever is blinded by Satan and can not see the glad tidings of salvation.

When a person responds to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and puts his faith in Christ and the mercy of God is shown to the person then God will also give that person the powerful working of regeneration.

What God commands, he also gives the power to do, to the believer.

God predestines according to His foreknowledge. He is the only one who knows who will believe and who will not from the beginning.

He has foreordained everyone in Christ to eternal life, because they believed in His Son and his finished work of redemption.

 2008/11/11 19:42Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Rbanks, please receive my words with an understanding that I write in a spirit of benevolence, and not insolent argument.

The sort of determination you describe is not Divine Predestination at all, though you may use such language. Rather, it is a kind of heavenly reaction, God's merciful ratification of the foreknown, self-sovereign determination of persons to believe on Christ for salvation. Such belief supposes that from eternity God merely stamps His approval on the foreseen intentions of those who ultimately commit their hearts to Christ. And this decision to place faith in Jesus springs decidedly from an energy native to their own natural being, or else God would be partial and unjust for granting them more than another.

Have I misrepresented your views? I do not think I have been too unfair. Yet even a common dictionary declares this to be a wayward definition of predestination, nor is it classical usage of the term elsewhere.

Webster's 1828 states,

"PREDESTINA'TION, n. The act of decreeing or foreordaining events; the decree of God by which he hath, from eternity, unchangeably appointed or determined whatever comes to pass. It is used particularly in theology to denote the preordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery."

Predestination is an active verb; it is an act. The supposed ratification of which you speak is passive, reactionary. It responds to the work of man. Divine Predestination, by contrast, is unalterably the work of Sovereign God on passive man. I will demonstrate this below. But first,

You wrote, "He has foreordained everyone in Christ to eternal life, because they believed in His Son and his finished work of redemption."

Your application of the word "because" makes the previous statement abhorrent, though I can trust you are saved differently than your writing would indicate. A Gospel which saved because we fulfilled the command to "repent and believe" (Acts 17) is not the Gospel which Ephesians, or the whole counsel of God preaches. You mix the means of salvation for the basis of of it, and pour water on the roots of the Galatian heresy.

Hear the words of inspired Paul,

"For you are saved by grace, through faith, not of yourselves but the gift of God."

We are not saved [i]because[/i] of faith, but [i]through[/i] faith, which comes as a result of being "quickened, who were uterly dead in trespasses and sins. He does this in His elect because of a real atonement made by Christ for all who were predestined by God to adoption from before the foundation of the world. Though the means and conditions of salvation are proclaimed freely, yet all willfully reject it except the few chosen. These only receive the regeneration necessary to alter their nature, thereby freeing their will from bondage to dominating sin.

You may cringe at such a statement, but the fact is everywhere evident. The harmony of will and nature is plain to anyone who looks. Consider now that nearly everyone who has heated water chooses to have hot showers rather than cold ones. The fact that they always choose hot is not because they have no will by which to choose cold; people simply choose their preference, and never will for what they expect to give less satisfaction. Every decision a person makes is for their greatest satisfaction, even if their ability to judge what will satisfy is greatly impaired. Intoxicated men have strong wills but weak judgments. Alcohol does not take their will, it perverts it. So does sin. As well, a man who ordinarily hates lying will eagerly tell one to save his friend's life. Such a man desires the greater satisfaction of preserving his loved one than of preserving his character, and so wills against his usual inclination. We see undeniably that the will is captive to ones ability to judge what will best satisfy his desires.

This brings us to the great problem, that mankind is born with a sinful nature which will always motivate him, at last, to choose self and sin over God. At the very best, men depart like the rich young ruler. Though one sees something of the value of Christ and the gospel, yet he does not desire more to be free of sin and the works of the law. "None cometh unto Me," said Christ, "accept Him whom the Father draws, and ALL of these I shall raise up on that day." The battle for souls is secure in a conquering King, who liberates souls victoriously.

The God who elects some willful sinners to salvation by regeneration unto faith, has also passed over others. He has chosen instead to make some sinners examples of His justice and wrath, per Romans 9.

"What (is your complaint) if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction (as it were, by the hands of a Potter God) :
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the [b]vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared[/b] unto glory, Even [b] us, whom he hath called[/b], not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

In conclusion, the predestination of some to hell for their willful sin is just. The predestination of others by grace unto salvation through faith which comes by regeneration, is gracious.

Brother, I leave you with John Gill's exposition of Ephesians 2:1. May God save you from this error, though I may have reasonable confidence He has already saved your soul.

Men in an unregenerate state, being represented in these passages as dead in sin, shows, that whilst they are in such a state, they are as incapable of spiritual motion or action, or of quickening themselves, as a dead man is of natural motion, or action, or of raising himself from the dead. Whence it must needs follow, that the work of conversion is a work of God, and not man, and to be ascribed to the exceeding greatness of his power; in which man is passive as a dead body is in its resurrection from the dead. In answer to which,

1st. It is said,[1] "that the metaphor of being dead in trespasses and sins, cannot warrant our saying anything of unregenerate persons, which may properly be affirmed of the dead;" for,

1. "A dead body is void of all sense; whereas the unregenerate man is often under strong convictions, and a deep sense of his present misery." To which I reply, that it is one thing for a man to be under strong convictions, and a deep sense of his present misery, or of the evil and mischief which comes by sin, which sense is purely natural; and another thing to be under real convictions, and a deep sense of the true evil and wickedness that is in sin, which is purely spiritual, and arises from the quickening influences of the Spirit of God.

2. A dead man cannot awake himself out of the sleep of death; but God saith to the spiritually dead man, Awake, thou that sleepest, arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee life, it should have been light (Eph. 5:14). I reply, that these words are not spoken to the spiritually dead, but to professors of religion, as abundantly appears from the context; who were fallen into a drowsy, sleepy frame, which was very much owing to their conversation with dead sinners: wherefore the Apostle exhorts them, to rouse themselves from this lethargy, and arise, and depart from their dead companions, and unfruitful works of darkness, when they might expect more light and liveliness in their souls from Christ.

3. "A dead man cannot hear: but to the spiritually dead, God saith, Hear, and you souls shall live (Isa. 55:8)." To which may be replied, that there is a twofold hearing of the word; an external one, which regards the outward ministry of it, and an internal one, so as to understand it; the former, men spiritually dead may be capable of, but not of the latter; (see John 8:43, 47). Besides the persons spoken to in the passage of Scripture cited, were not spiritually dead, but were such as were quickened, who had a principle of spiritual life implanted in them. In consequence of which, they thirsted after spiritual things, verse 1, though greatly distressed under a sense of their spiritual poverty. Wherefore, the Lord encourages them to hearken to him, and listen to his covenant, grace and promises, that they might live comfortably.

4. "It would be absurd to exhort a dead body to turn about and live; whereas God thinks it not incongruous to say to persons spiritually dead, Turn yourselves, and ye shall live" (Ezek. 18:32; 33:11). I reply, that the passages referred to, do not regard such who were spiritually dead; since they concern the whole house of Israel, and every one of them: of whom it cannot be said, that they were dead in trespasses and sins: nor do the exhortations relate to the first work of conversion, but to an external reformation of them as a body politic, that they might peaceably live in their own land, and comfortably enjoy the good things of it.

5. "Good Christians are said to be dead to sin (Rom. 6:2, 11); to the law (Gal. 2:19), and to the world (Gal. 6:14)." Now if hence we cannot truly argue, that they cannot sin at all, that they can do nothing relating to the world, or to the law; neither can we argue from the metaphor of being dead in trespasses and sins, that we can do nothing in obedience to the calls of God, or compliance with the motions of his word and Spirit. To which I reply, that the meaning of the phrases in the passages mentioned is, that believers are freed from the damning power of sin, and from the curse and condemnation of the law, and are delivered from this present evil world. Now, whereas we can truly argue from hence, that believers are so dead to sin, the law, and the world, and these to them, as that they cannot condemn, damn, or destroy them; so we can truly argue from the metaphor, of being dead in trespasses and sins, that men can do nothing spiritually good, until God powerfully calls them by his grace, and they feel the quickening influences and motions of his Spirit.

2ndly In answer to the argument from these Scriptures, it is observed,[2] that "both the places cited concern only the Gentile world; and so we cannot argue from those words, which do so certainly relate to the worst of Heathens, that this must be the natural state of all men: or, that the same power is requisite to convert the unregenerate Christian, and the worst of Heathens." I reply, that these persons spoken of were Heathens, is readily granted; but that they were the worst of Heathens is not so manifest, though, probably, they were as bad as any. However, I cannot but take notice of the unregenerate Christian, as a mere paradox, a contradiction in terms; since no man can be truly a Christian but he that is regenerated by the Spirit of Christ. But, passing these things, let it be observed, that the same character of being dead in a moral or spiritual sense, is given to unregenerate Jews, which is here given to the unconverted Gentiles (Matthew 8:22; John 5:25). For that they were Jews, and not Gentiles, our Lord speaks to and of in the places referred to, is evident from this consideration, that as yet the Gospel was not sent to the Gentiles; nor were there any among them as yet who heard his voice or followed him. Nothing is more a certain and true than this, that he, or she, that liveth in pleasure, whether Jew or Gentile, are dead while they live. Besides, the a apostle says the very same things, in the same words, of himself, who was a Jew, and a devout one, and of others, while unconverted, as he does of these worst of Heathens (Eph. 2:4, 5). So that we may truly argue, and safely conclude, that this must be the natural state of all men; and that the same power is requisite to convert an unregenerate Jew, yea, an unregenerate man living where Christianity is professed, and the worst of Heathens; since the same characters belong to them.

 2008/11/11 22:09Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Theopenlife, the bottom line is this and it comes down to those who believe and those who don’t believe. God is the one who tells man to repent and believe. God is the one who saves men who repent and believe.

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.


God cannot lie and has given the promise to those who believe.

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ro 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Ro 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ga 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

No argument intended, but many don’t understand Rom 9 and I believe you are one of them. The bible plainly says “to him that believes” God gives them the promise of eternal life. If God does what you say in your understanding of Rom. 9 then explain the determining factor in His selection of those who become fortunate to be the elect. I will believe the scriptures:

Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

The scripture is also clear that one is not even sealed with the Holy Spirit until after they believe:

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.



 2008/11/11 23:17Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Brother Rbanks,

I think Michael (theopenlife), and anyone who believes in sovereign grace, would agree with everything you just said. However, we hold the conviction that the Bible teaches that no man can believe unless he is enabled by the Spirit of God, which I believe is why Michael posted John Gill's exposition of Ephesians 2:1 in his post.

LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: [b]for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.[/b] (Isaiah 26:12)


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/11/12 13:15Profile
boG
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 Re: Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

Quote:
It will be helpful to understand that just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the [b]power in and of themselves[/b] to keep the command.

For instance, "Lazarus come forth".



You have made a misconception in your statement here.

"just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the power" -- "to keep the command."

You have wrongly assumed we might say "in and of themselves" that is humanism [Edit: actually I should say it is satanism, after all it is humanism with rituals). We say, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Therefore to restate your comment, if I may:

"just because God commands something does not mean that the person has the power" -- without God -- "to keep the command."

Or, in other words, because God commands something He Himself is the power by which we obey and keep the command.


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Jordan

 2008/11/12 14:40Profile





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