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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does God Predestine Some Men to Hell? (Double Predestination)

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TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
This is a man made doctrine and no where to be found in the word of God.



[i]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/i] (Romans 9:18-20)

I don't know how it can be stated any plainer. The very fact that Paul anticipated the response he does, which is basically the same response many are using today - "If God has to draw us, then why are we still held responsible?" - proves that he was talking about the very thing many deny.

I understand this is not a comfortable thing to study, however, we have to take the Scripture for what it says and ascribe the Lord the sovereignty He possesses.

On a side note, the early, post-apostolic (even some during the apostolic age - see Corinth, Galatia, Laodecia, etc.) Christians believed some very heretical things, therefore, simply to believe that their beliefs must have been true because of the sheer antiquity of them is a bad way to go about ascertaining true doctrine.


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/10/28 13:15Profile
davym
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Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 319


 Re:

I feel Romans 9 gives a lot of authority to Calvinism, but we must treat this great truth with care. The doctrine of election has unsearchable depths to it. Just like the Cross, much of it remains a mystery. To try and bring God's sovereignty and man's responsibility together by reasoning and debate has been the cause of grievous splits in once strong church assemblies. The fact is that we don't know who the elect are and we're called to evangelise.

Does got predestinate men to hell? All I know is that all men were bound for hell and God in His mercy saved some.

Romans 9 v 12-25

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.




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David

 2008/10/28 13:15Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:


On a side note, the early, post-apostolic (even some during the apostolic age - see Corinth, Galatia, Laodecia, etc.) Christians believed some very heretical things, therefore, simply to believe that their beliefs must have been true because of the sheer antiquity of them is a bad way to go about ascertaining true doctrine.




these passages speak nothing about their doctrine, it says they lacked works. The thing is, the early christians saw this doctrine as heresy, i mean men who was taught by the apostle John. Take Polycarp who was the bichop in smyrna, it is possible that the angel in revelation in smyrna is polycarp. And John made him overseer of that church.

They dident believe this, in fact there where people teaching this doctrines, it was the gnostics
and in fact John calls these antichrist in his first epistle.

What i mean is this , yes God elects people, to be conformed after His son Jesus. Not if one should go to hell or heaven. And if one cares to study the early church, they dont see two sides, as we do, calvinism and arminianism. They saw one. And in fact, as you say the bible is plain, God wants all to come to repentance. If this election is true, that God elects people to hell, then it would make God the author of evil.

And he is not.


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/10/28 13:31Profile
TaylorOtwell
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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Take Polycarp who was the bichop in smyrna, it is possible that the angel in revelation in smyrna is polycarp. And John made him overseer of that church.



Friend, I've read Polycarp's letter to the Philippians more than once, and it never says anything contrary to the teaching of predestination. And it certainly never says anything that could be taken as saying that predestination was a heresy. The letter even speaks of the "elect of God" in the first few sentences.

Furthermore, let's just assume you are correct in saying that God elects people to be conformed to Christ. I agree with this statement. However, I believe you are not following the consequences of your statement. If God elects some to be conformed to the image of Christ, that means they are elected to share in His righteousness by imputation, therefore, those who are not elect to be conformed to the image of Christ are not elected to share in that righteousness. So, if they are not elect to share in that righteousness, they are not going to be saved.

To say that God elects certain people to be conformed to the image of Christ is the same thing as saying He elects people to go to heaven.




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Taylor Otwell

 2008/10/28 13:38Profile









 Re:

This is a topic that will never be settled here and no one on either side will ever be able to fully understand this side of glory.

Thats what I know for sure about Calvinism.

Krispy

 2008/10/28 13:43









 Re:

I think the main thing for all of us who seriously study the word of God is that it "is not broken." There is harmony and it does not cotradict itself. We may contradict ourselves, because we are human and our reasonings are human, but the Bible is the infallible Word of God and their is harmony to everything that is written. So, if the Lord says that He so loved the world, or that He He would have it that none would perish or uses language like "whosoever," and so on, then we know that this is true. Now how do we reconcile that with Romans 9 and other passages? God can have exceptions to the rule. Just because he hardens a mans heart or chooses one over another, what is that to us? Does not God have a right to do whatever He willS for all is His? So, God wants alL men to be saved, excellent. Yet he perhaps makes vessels for dishonor for his own purposes, excellent. If God does it, then He has a reason, a reason we may not fully understand. Yet it does not change the fact that the Word is infallible and that terms like the "world," and "whosever," are used. Cant understand it? keep studying, perhaps you may have to wait until you stand before Him and all things become clear. Yet I know that we all agree that ther Scriptures cannot be broken.........brother Frank

 2008/10/28 13:43
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

TaylorOtwell wrote:
Quote:
Take Polycarp who was the bichop in smyrna, it is possible that the angel in revelation in smyrna is polycarp. And John made him overseer of that church.



Friend, I've read Polycarp's letter to the Philippians more than once, and it never says anything contrary to the teaching of predestination. And it certainly never says anything that could be taken as saying that predestination was a heresy. The letter even speaks of the "elect of God" in the first few sentences.

Furthermore, let's just assume you are correct in saying that God elects people to be conformed to Christ. I agree with this statement. However, I believe you are not following the consequences of your statement. If God elects some to be conformed to the image of Christ, that means they are elected to share in His righteousness by imputation, therefore, those who are not elect to be conformed to the image of Christ are not elected to share in that righteousness. So, if they are not elect to share in that righteousness, they are not going to be saved.

To say that God elects certain people to be conformed to the image of Christ is the same thing as saying He elects people to go to heaven.







you are right about polycarp, i was hasty in writing which is always a bad thing, but i took an example and the early church is for the most part united in their beliefs and also in this belief although polycarp did not say about election some very respected others of the early church and their writings do, i will provide quotes later, and these men are just one man away from Polycarp. i will write a long thorough post later my friend.


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/10/28 14:06Profile
bible1985
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Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

i hope not, and it seems that it is possible from reading the scripture and how the Lord hardens peoples hearts to not believe and even blinds their eyes and ears, correct me if i am wrong. I think scripture says both personally. But maybe that is why we our to preach the gospel to all. I remember when Jesus told the pharisees that they were not of his sheep but of the father the devil. They were not of his, so maybe that is how it is today, some our Gods and some aren't. But i truly have no idea, has anybody prayed about this and got an answer from God. From what my friend from biblequery.com told me from the early church fathers believed you could lose your salvation and that all were called by God.

 2008/10/28 14:16Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

If they are one man away from Polycarp, that means they are two men away from the Apostles - which is two men too many.

I agree, division is a bad thing. I hate it just like other Christians, friend. It doesn't bring me joy to see Christians divided.

I do not try and help people understand the doctrines of grace so I can pat myself on the back - I simply know what comfort knowing that God, in rich, free grace, has chosen His people without any shred of worth in them, and that He will never let them go. He is truly our Good Shepherd.

I probably will not have much more time to contribute anything else to this thread.

***edit***

Quote:
They were not of his, so maybe that is how it is today, some our Gods and some aren't. But i truly have no idea, has anybody prayed about this and got an answer from God.



We have an answer from God in the Scripture - no need to seek for things already revealed. Our Lord plainly stated to the Pharisees that they did not believe because they were not His sheep - He did [b]not[/b] say that they were not His sheep because they did not believe. See the difference?


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Taylor Otwell

 2008/10/28 14:18Profile
AbideinHim
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Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3505
Louisiana

 Re:

The Word of God teaches predestination but it also teaches the responsibility of man. Here is a quote from Spurgeon:

"The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once.

I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism.

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other.

These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."


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Mike

 2008/10/28 14:22Profile





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