Hi Frank,The major points you make we agree upon and I think we have discussed them before in part. However, we have to balance this a bit. The world [i]has[/i] always been wicked, but we have yet to see what this world system is capable of. We are already seeing things not even spoken of in the scriptures. Not even Sodom is said to have 'married' men and men. Not even Sodom is said to have aborted millions of its unborn, etc. The only known video of Billy Sunday preaching is an open air message against the legalization of alcohol. He is open air preaching prohibition. Preachers [i]used[/i] to be known for preaching against such things so as to rally the people and effect change upon society. But today preachers fear losing their 501c3 and won't say anything. So we have bowed the knee to Mammon and it has had a major effect. We have watched here in Missouri as bingo halls gave way to lottery tickets. Kansas then opened a dog track across the border to draw people there. Missouri countered with 'gambling boats' with gambler loss limits for the day. All in the name of 'schools' getting more funding. The voters had to permit all this. [i]Now[/i], the problem is people are not typically told the truth on these things. They get half truths and then make decisions based on lies. We as the people of God surely have a responsibility to in some way get involved to speak truth to these issues. That is what Billy Sunday was doing. We have proposition A on the ballot in a few weeks. It will [u]remove[/u] the loss restriction as it now exists to increase revenues. Where are the Billy Sunday's? What do we suppose these old timers would have done if these issues had come up in 'their' time? I can say with some certainty that much of what we have casually allowed would turn them in their graves. It is a sad day when James Dobson has the sense to try to lead in the fight against iniquity while so-called ministers hide behing their 501c3 and act as if it is spiritual.
_________________Robert Wurtz II
HI Robert...yes we have discussed these issues before and I am glad that we are in agreement on most of the points that I raised. I think we may simply have to disagree on the role of the preacher or the layperson in society at large. Most of the Christians that I knew voted against the dog-track and the gambling boats. Problem? The world wanted them. Am I surprised? No. Should we now condemn the world for wanting to gamble or for wanting to drink? If I was in the world I would drinking and gambling. And I think that the world , who have rejected Christ, should eat and drink and be merry, for tomorrow they die, they die eternally. And it is this eternal death that concerns me more than their drinking and gambling. As you know, Christ can deliver anyone from drinking and gambling, in fact I am living proof of that. What they cannot be delivered from is eternal death for those who reject Christ. That is why the religious man, Dr Dobson, will focus on these issues, while ministers of God will focus on the state of a mans soul.As for prohibition, surely that speaks for itself?..........brother Frank
Most of the Christians that I knew voted against the dog-track and the gambling boats. Problem? The world wanted them.
Robert, I agree with you that we have to keep a balance and it seems that many Christians have gone to extremes on these issues. The Republican party or removing all of the liberals from office is not going to bring in the kingdom of God, but the kingdom of God coming into the political arena can certainly change things for the better. As Christians we are to be salt and light. If Christians are not letting their lights shine, the darkness will surely come in. If Christians are not being salt, corruption is the result. In the early days of America many of the preachers stood up in the pulpits and adressed the moral issues that were affecting our society. It should be the same way today. Mike
Hi RobertI appreciate or discourse. I think we have already established that simply because a Christian does not support the notion that solutions are not to be found in politics, does not mean inversly that he advocates "doing nothing." That is simply preposterous and lacks any real depth and breadth of discussing the issues, I know that is not you. Can I suggest that the preaching of morality in the this country at the turn of the century was more a reflection on a persons upbringing and personal philosohpy. How many sermons do we have from preachers , traveling through the South, roundly condemning racism ? True courage, always speaks the truth in love despite the consequences. Any preacher at any time can preach anything he wants either from his pulpit or in the public square. Its the price that he does not want to pay that is the problem. So you may lose your tax status, so what? If God speaks to a man and tells him to speak up, then he should speak up. I am tired of people complaining that they do not have freedom to speak and so on. Also, the notion that Christians today have it worse that the early Christians from a more wicked world is also preposterous. How many of us have been dipped in tar and set alight? How many of us have been fed to the lions? Burned at the stake? For Christians in the dark ages who dared to stand against the Catholic church, the very first thing that happened to them was that they lost everything that they owned, and then it went downhill from there. So, if you are a Christian out there, or a preacher, and you feel led to speak out against any number of issues, stop whining and speak out :) Be as bold as you are led and let the chips fall where they may..........brother Frank
I appreciate or discourse.
I live in Louisiana, and as many of you know this state has had a long history of corrupt politicians, and one of the former governors is now incarcarated at the Federal Detention Center in Oakdale La. As a direct result of prayer, we now have a Christian governor that has brought ethics reform to our state. He has upset a lot of the "good ole boy" politicians in our state, and we have now gone from being last in the nation to first in ethics reform. This new governor is a man of integrity, and things have changed in our state because of righteous men in our government and intercessors that have consistently and persistently prayed for our state. Mike
I was kind of following along and thought of the scripture below and was wondering how it should be interpreted.2 Timothy 2:4 (KJV) 4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 2 Timothy 2:4 (NIV) 4 No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs--he wants to please his commanding officer. 2 Timothy 2:4 (NKJV) 4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.
I thought of this passage about our leaders. [color=000066]I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (I Timothy 2)[/color]
2 Timothy 2:4 (KJV) 4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. 2 Timothy 2:4 (NIV) 4 No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs--he wants to please his commanding officer. 2 Timothy 2:4 (NKJV) 4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier.
Brother Robert( a man I respect and have ate BBQ with:) states.."We cannot allow ourselves to come under the influence of this world to please those that are of this world. You cannot serve God and Mammon- type thing. Our loyalty has to be absolutely to Christ, first. We have to obey God rather than men."Amen brother, now there is something we can completely agree on :) Here are some of the reasons why I think that it is not possible for Christians to be effectively involved in Politics. 1. Who amongst us would take a job where we would have to deny that Jesus was the one and only way to heaven and that all other religions lead to eternal death? If President Bush or any elected official ever said that they would never have been elected in the first place. If Sarah Palin said that right now, she would be finished.2. What if it was part of your job to say what a fine faith the Muslim faith was? President Bush said that shortly after 9/11. What a slap in the face to our Heavenly Father and our Lord Jesus. 3. What about going to the Pope's funeral and pronouncing to the world that he was was one of the finest Christians?These statements are beyond compromise. They give false comfort to , not millions, but Billions. 4. What about making the statement that there would not be a liptmus test for Supreme court judges in the abortion issues? Again, they have to say that, they have to compromise for political expediency. Have we been called to a life of compromise? You show me a politician who would boldy and proudly say that Jesus is the one and only way to heaven and I will show you a politician I would vote for :) You show me a politican with the courage of his or her convictions and who would boldly say that , if elected, there would absolutely be a liptmus test for Supreme court judges and I would cast my vote for that person. I think in the very rare occasions you do have someone that is actually used by God in politics, that someone would be someone like William Wilberforce. His sole purpose for being in politics was for the eradication of slavery. I would have cast my vote for William :)In 1890 a new Louisiana law required railroads to provide equal but separate accommodations for the white, and colored, races. Outraged, the black community in New Orleans decided to test the rule. On June 7, 1892, Homer Plessy agreed to be arrested for refusing to move from a seat reserved for whites. Judge John H. Ferguson upheld the law, and the case of Plessy v. Ferguson slowly moved up to the Supreme Court. On May 18, 1896, the U.S. Supreme Court, with only one dissenting vote, ruled that segregation in America was constitutional.Now, here is a practical way that Christians can change their enviroment. I have used this example before but it bears repeating because it quashes the notion that by not being involved in politics you are advocating "doing nothing." If you were a Christian man in downtown Alabama who owned a Restaraunt, in 1923 say, and along comes a black man and walks in your store and sits down in the "White section." The lord whispers in your heart "do not ask that man to move, serve him." Now, you have a choice to make. If it is known that you have or do serve black men, you will probably lose your business, your friends, your church membership and your place in society. What do you do? You see, this is social justice, this is cutting edge Christianity, this requires supreme faith and courage. It was not the politicans, they had already spoken, its your job to do what is right and let the chips fall where they may. This to me is real courage. Way more courage than to stand up and talk about the evils of drink or gambling. This kind of act would bring about conviction(Thank the Lord that there were courageous Christian men)And so, as always, Christians must always be vigilant in not allowing themselves to become political pawns in power struggles. We have seen this happen all too often and it has not brought glory to the church, whether it was the issues of manifest detiny(preached all through the land) or civil rights or any other issue. If we are called upon to be "single issue voters," then is it too much to ask for "single issue Politicians?" ..............brother Frank