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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Would I be wrong if I were to stop tithing and start paying my debt completely off. God knows my heart. Saintly wisdom and council is appreciated. I brought it up to my wife and she said, "Ask SI"!(besides prayer)...



I think it begins with genuine contentment in life and a basic attitude that we don't want to be in debt at all if possible. I say this from experience that debt makes slaves out of us and paying each debt off is very encouraging.

I think there has to be an absolute determination and resolve to pay the debt off (Dave Ramsey style) as soon as possible. This might mean cutting off everything that is unnecessary or working extra hours or a part time job. It may take time. But I am not convinced that cutting off monies we have set aside for the Lord is the answer. I would try to cut somewhere else [u]if[/u] possible.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/10/23 3:59Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Here's another interesting question for you to consider. Would giving your tithe to the church actually be giving it wisely to the Lord. I have had this dilemma.

If the money is only going to be spent on Pastor's salaries and expenses and not on any other Christian mission work or ministry, is it right to give exclusively to the church.

In my own life I have been lead to give to more than one Christian missions organization or ministry in addition to giving at church, but also reducing the amount that I give at church in the process.

I guess it is a moot point; right now I serve as a missionary in Tokyo, I get a stipend from the church, I try my best to tithe out of the stipend. I really wonder whether I should even feel compelled to tithe when I am giving 100% of my time to the Lord, and burning through my savings in the process.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2008/10/23 4:30Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Great questions and answers.


1. As we all know, the Lord needs no person's money to do His will.

[u][b]Acts 8:20-21 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.


2. Jesus tells us to give everything and pick up our cross daily.

[u][b]Mark 10:21 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”


3. We are not to owe others or carry debt.

[u][b]2 Kings 4:7 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Then she came and told the man of God. And he said, “Go, sell the oil and pay your debt; and you and your sons live on the rest.”


4. A man of the Lord who teaches is worth his wages
[u][b]1 Timothy 5:17-18 (NKJV)[/b][/u]

Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”



Should we tithe? Yes, If the Lord commands. Should you pay off your debt? Yes. Should you give 100%? Yes. If you are sitting under teh teachings of a man of God should we help pay his wages? Yes.

Should you pay off your debt before you tithe. This is between you and the Lord. I would say yes and no. Yes because we need to be free from the bonds of this world, all the while we need to support our brothers and sisters in need. I for one believe in paying off my debts AND a tithe, in what ever fashion that takes.
:-)


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/10/23 11:21Profile
Nellie
Member



Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re:

Give what God shows you to give.
He will help you.
I speak from experience.
He will show you what to do.
Before I found a Bible based Church, I gave my tithes to a couple of Ministries, who I knew preached the True Word of God.'
I give to the local Church I attend now.
The Pastor doesn't take a salary.
I think this is amazing!

God Bless you.
He will show you what to do.
Nellie

 2008/10/23 11:29Profile
MisterCheez
Member



Joined: 2006/2/22
Posts: 96
Colorado

 Re:

If you are a fan of Zac Poonen, read the [url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/finances.php]Contact Us - Financial Support[/url] page. There are a series of questions they request that you ask yourself before giving. The third questions is:

Quote:
3. Do you have any large debts to repay? If so, do clear those debts first. God wants His children to live restful lives, free from all debt. We must first give to Caesar what is his, before we can give anything to God, because God does not want us to give Him Caesar's money, or anyone else's money (Matt.22:21; Rom.13:8).



Also, in regards to the widow's mite, I heard a teacher bring up an interesting point. The point being: Jesus merely observes that the woman gave all she had - he doesn't offer endorsement. AND, if you read the context (the real context ignoring chapter breaks)the setting is suggestive:

He had just finished warning them to "Beware the scribes...who devour widows' houses." Then they sit down opposite the treasury and observe how people are giving. Once Jesus makes his observation about the widow, the disciples mention the temple "how it was adorned with goodly stones and offerings" and Jesus replies, "As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in which there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

It is possible that Jesus was actually upset that this widow's house was being devoured by greedy religious leaders of the day who demanded a tithe. Not sure, it's just an interesting proposition.

Personally, my wife and I still try to set aside 10 percent for giving as a good habit. But we don't feel compelled to robotically (new adjective?) give 10% to line local pastors' pockets. We try to be good investors, putting finances into people/ministries/charities/churches which are doing the Gospel and taking minimal or no cut for themselves. If a pastor wants a new Cadillac, he can get a job like the rest of us. Not to say that we are unwilling to help out a minister with personal needs, but there is something wrong with a pastor telling people to give their tithes to God and then using all the tithes on himself.

Though they don't condemn others who do take a salary, Zac Poonen and his Elders take none:

Quote:
Like the other elders in CFC, Zac Poonen also supports himself and his family through "tent-making" and does not receive any salary for his services. He does not receive any royalty for any of his books, audio tapes, video tapes or CDs, published by Christian Fellowship Centre.


_________________
Brian Erickson

 2008/10/23 12:47Profile
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

I am well aware of what Zac Poonen said in his website before I first replied in this thread. I also believe that the in the case of the widow that gave all in the bible, there are many lessons to be learned from it and not just what MisterCheez or myself has put forth. So I believe that what MisterCheez and myself have put forth are both applicable and not exclusive to each other (I believed that, for other stories in the bible as well).

Edit to include:
In Corrie Ten Boom's book, they had a large debt that had to be paid soon. A person walked into the store and purchased an expensive watch. When Casper Ten Boom found out that this rich person was a former customer of another person who had died (and the dead man's son could not do a proper job in servicing the watch that this rich man needed), Casper Ten Boom refused to sell him the watch. In fact, he encouraged him to go back to the dead man's son and said that he (Casper) will help the rich man if he ran into any problems. Corrie Ten Boom was shocked and ran out. Casper Ten Boom told her that the Lord had many sheeps and we should not worry.

I know that the above case does not exactly apply but thought I put it out there.

In many places, one has no choice but to be in debt (due to studies, getting a house to stay in etc). One cannot say dont't buy a house because one do not want to take a loan/debt. Then where is one to stay then? At times we have to incur huge debt (such as loan on house). Is it then contradictory to the bible--I don't see it. Does it mean we are to stop giving to God just because we have that huge house debt? I can't imagine it.

I'm sorry, but somehow I can't imagine stopping giving to God completely until one has cleared off one's large debts completely (unless its a dire situation). The bible doesn't tell us to do so and common sense will tell us that its wrong. Maybe at times we have to stop giving for a certain period, give less etc (but to stop giving completely until one's debts are all cleared--I can't believe its God's will unless somebody can point out the verses in the bible saying that).

To me, stopping giving to God completely just to clear off all debts completely (without more substantial reasons eg: dire situation) smacks of the world (and not of God). I also believe that at times God may chose not to answer us because common sense should tell us what's the right answer. Imagine if we were to cut ourselves badly and need medical help, do we have to pray to God and wait for an answer from God to see whether we should go and see a doctor. I hope that this will help some (its not my intention to be a bit harsh here but I am unable to put it into softer words without it losing its meaning completely, maybe due to my own limitations. I'm also not saying that in the case of Brian, his situation is not dire etc or his question is wrong etc, because only he and God know the actual situation and the question/discussion may also help others)

I can understand the reasons why some people would return the $ to those in debt and why Zac Poonen put those words in his website (for example, many people in India are very poor, and they may feel compelled to give to God even though they are in dire situations--so putting those words there will help and possibly may well be what God intended. But this should not apply to all situations.)


_________________
geraldine

 2008/10/23 19:27Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1330


 Re:

Learn, I must say I have enjoyed reading your posts and the wisdom you have displayed. The Love for God and the good advice you are giving to those on this thread and also to Brian is commendable.

Brian the question you have asked to those on SI, I hope that you realized that you will get all kinds of advice. There is some very good advice from many on here but you also need to realize that God and his word to you is most important. Sometimes we want to be freer and we think that if we don’t have to give or tithe regularly or as much with a clear conscience, then that would be so wonderful. But we must realize that our giving shows our love for God and his cause on the earth. It also shows that we believe God will provide and that He can use us in our faithfulness to Him.

I have also come to understand sadly that there are some on here who will not give you good advice because they enjoy a freedom not to give regularly nor do they believe in tithing. They have some how reached a level that has freed them from tithing because they think it is bondage. There are some on here that have freedom to drink alcohol occasionally. There are others on here that have freedom not to attend church. There are others on here that believe in once saved always saved no matter how they live for God. There are others on here who believe they are the elect and are forced to do God’s will and believe they are doing God’s will all the time.

I could say a lot more but it really comes down to your faith in God. Do you love God and how do you see it. Most people are in debt in some way or another. We need to ask ourselves before we go into debt is this necessary and where are my priorities, and is God and his cause first in my life. The bible speaks much about giving and God has given so much to me and why shouldn’t I want to give regularly to God and his cause on the earth.

There are some who say tithing was only for the Old Testament and we are in a new covenant with God now so we don’t have to tithe. Do we not realize that under grace we have been given so much more from God and if we have the means why would we want to do less than a tithe. He is the same God and his promises to those who give are greater under the new covenant than it was in the Old. The bible says to owe no man anything but to love one another so we should never go into a debt that we don’t have the means to pay back. We owe God a debt that we can never repay so we are indebted to his cause on this earth for His great love to us.

We should never think that money is ours to spend on ourselves and if we have anything left we should then give something to God. I don’t believe the bible teaches it that way at all, because God should be first in our Life and if that does not include our money which is a basic necessity to buy the things we need, then we are putting our self above God and that is idolatry.

Most of all my brother I hope you will have peace in whatever you decide and also be a cheerful giver.

 2008/10/23 21:24Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Debt

Brian,

I will stand by Zac's admonishens and agree with him wholeheartedly. It is in fact the very process that I am going through; One goal with one mind; Out of debt.

This matter of tithing has been gone through here at length and if anyone takes notice, even in this posting ... there is a great deal of [i]opinion[/i] but not a lot of firm New Testament model aspects being applied.

That being said ... Have flipped flopped over this for years, have read a great deal on the proscriptions and am not convinced that the mode and model that has been established, the 'tithe' has any bearing on us as it is [i]prescribed[/i]

I am hesitating and it is difficult not to get a bit agitated over this. Our brother is 60K in debt. [i]$60,000.00[/i] If some of the more vocal commentators have not been or are not presently in this same neighborhood then it might be very easy for you to give your opinions. I am sorry, I do not mean to be harsh but there is a point where practicality meets the ashphalt.

Part of my indignation arises from past days under the influence of so much prosperity\WOF constructs and even the borrowing of the greater majority of the evangelical ... setup. I wonder aloud what would happen if the members did a turn about and gave from the heart against this proscription? In both ways. That is, on the one hand those who can hardly afford to be giving anything though they might desire to, were upheld by those that could and that well beyond the "10%" litmus test. Even this very site, SermonIndex ... God will provide indeed. But to secure something as seemingly inconsequential as a new laptop for Greg appeared to be a strain at the resources of those of us who freely consume from the depth of this well.

This is and will always be a matter of heart and conscience, not prodding nor guilt association (despite my own beef mentioned a moment ago) nor manipulation. My ire gets up on a number of fronts over this. The flip flopping itself is one often conducive to all the past absorbed teachings, though they may be distanced they still come. As an example ... After we left the prosperity nonsense and went to another church, one that was at least disassociated from these things, we happened to arrive just at the time they were starting up their building program. Being naive on the one hand and yet still apparently effected by so much prior teaching, we attended their kick-off event and though we had only been there a month 'decided'(and 'prayed') that we would contribute 10K over the course of a couple, three years. I cannot and will not blame them but would to God that a man of the grasp and stature of Zac Poonen or George Mueller would have had the foresight to not only take note of the fact that we were very, very new members but if they new us better, that we were also under a mountain of debt as well. Again, I take the responsibility for my ignorance at that time, we should never had made such a commitment under a sense of obligation and compulsion. It was sheer foolishness.

Look, there is far too much of this in Christianity in this day. It is a contorting of the sheep - It is largely based upon a give to get scheme no matter how well it is polished up to look otherwise. This is the impression put into the mind, that it is [i]attached[/i] to monetary giving. We have all but forgotten the point of [i]But when you give to the poor, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be done in secret[/i]. Nobody knows but God, what might a teaching be upon this exhortation, that we ought to be trying as hard as possible to conceal that which is seen by men? How might it also apply to those who are being torn asunder because nothing more would please them then to give their money and themselves to the Lord in [i]secret[/i] and with no expectation of anything, just their desire to do so, [i]but[/i] they are shackled to this debt that is like a dead weight always upon their shoulder, often keeping them occupied with how to get out from underneath it so that they can give that which is burning inside them to give .... I am telling you, you have no idea how difficult it is. To do so sounds like boasting or pie in the sky 'what if' scenarios but I have been laboring long under this and it kills me when I want to secretly give to this very place and many, many others but know that this debt must be dealt with and dealt with first. The accumulation of interest alone is insanity. You can pay a fraction over your minimum and if you have some high interest debts paying $100 on a $50 minimum payment you may have just evened out, your principle ekes down a couple of bucks a month. There are other complications I have here with not everyone on the same page, it becomes a broken record, the economy is in very bad shape if anyone has taken notice and I am often torn between becoming something of ... a brut with the finances and just giving up on the notion of ever getting out of this hole. But I will press on and will, if need be take on even more work, every weekend if that is what it takes. I am so proud of Zac Poonen for the very fact that he does work and has seemingly told few if anybody what it is he does to earn a living outside of those in his area. What an example, what a stark contrast to ...

I have had my share of guilt ridden, self inflicted pummeling over this whole business, it creeps into your pores. Even the puritans who I love would be at odds I think in many ways with me. I do not 'tithe' any more and for the time being ... it is a secret between myself and the Lord what is done in this present time. It is very little if it must be known - out of debt. first and foremost.

I do not think many know what kind of burden this is for some of us - longing to do so much and shackled at that very point.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/10/23 23:41Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 742


 Re:

No offense meant to previous posters but I agree with 'crsschk' pay your debts with priority before it drag you down. I believe tithing per se is not a must for Christians, rather as the apostle Paul said:

"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver"(2 Cor 9:7).

This is not a license however, to give charity or the simple mode of living with the lowest degree of consideration nor an encouragement to spend our money in a wordly manner.

 2008/10/24 1:02Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179


 Re:

The Lord put it upon my heart to begin tithing many years ago. Since I was not attending any church, I began by helping to support a missionary family. The amount that I began with was small, but I kept increasing the amount when ever possible.

Later, I incurred debt. The Lord made me aware that this was not His will - so I set my heart to pay it off - and with His help it was paid off in a short amount of time - the money just seemed to flow in. All during this time I continued tithing.

It was not long after my debt was paid off that the Lord provided me with a brand new car. Not long after that, a house that I had admired as a teenager became available for about a third of it's original value. One time when I needed money, the Lord had me find a substantial error that the bank had made on a past financial statement. One time He had me find some gold that I had forgotten that I had stashed. One time I found some money that someone had hidden in a wall . . . and it goes on and on.

Since I turned my heart to be obedient in these things, the Lord has always provided - exceedingly and abundantly - but we must do them in Him - trust in Him to direct us in the things that He has asked us to do. He is faithful, and He is true - but we can do nothing of ourselves. Only in Him.

 2008/10/24 1:14Profile





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