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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Will only the christians that are baptizwed with the Holy Ghost go in the rapture?

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jerryaustin1
Member



Joined: 2008/9/2
Posts: 60
Louisiana

 Will only the christians that are baptizwed with the Holy Ghost go in the rapture?

Please only y give a response if you belive that the baptism of the Holy Ghost happens after conversion.


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Jerry Austin

 2008/10/20 20:12Profile
sojourner7
Member



Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re: Will only the christians that are baptizwed with the Holy Ghost go in the rapture

Jerry, I can only speak from my own experience.
Salvation came when I realized my shame and sin
and invited Christ into my heart and life. The
baptism and filling of the Spirit came later
when I began to understand what it meant to be
filled and led by the Spirit. We must be Spirit
born, Spirit filled, and Spirit led Christians.
The Spirit is the pledge of Christ within us,
the hope of glory. When our Blessed Lord returns
for His own, He will know us by the emblem of
His Holy Spirit within !!


_________________
Martin G. Smith

 2008/10/20 21:59Profile









 Re: Will only the christians that are baptizwed with the Holy Ghost go in the rapture

Hi Jerry:

Acts 10:44-48 teaches that God can do whatever suits Him, whatever He pleases. In this example, these gentiles receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost before they have been water baptized:

44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.45. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47. Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48. And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

In my case, I received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost many years after I was saved. Actually, I had a friend who had a wonderful, personal walk with the Lord. As I got to know him better he explained to me about the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and that Paul’s ministry was involved with the “laying on of hands” and leading believers into the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. He led me into the Baptism of the Holy Ghost by prayer and the laying on of hands.

Paul only water baptized a hand full of people:
1 Cor 1: 14. I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15. Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.


Is there a Scripture which lists the sequence of steps toward the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

Read Ephesian 1:13

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE,"
The steps to the baptism in the Holy Spirit are 1) listen to the message of truth (the gospel), 2) believe the message (become saved), and 3) then be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

How does God decide who to baptize in the Holy Spirit? Read Luke 11:13----
"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ASK Him?"

First off, God is not the Father of the evil people, Satan is their father! Secondly, if God is your Father you are His child. If you are a child or a son of God then you are born again, i.e. saved. Read John 7:38 and 39, "'He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive, for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." Thus, first we must be a child of God, then last and most important we must ask for the gift of the baptism IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.Thus first we must be a child of God, then last and most important we must ASK FOR THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT Holy Spirit.

Thus, God does not make the decision as to who He baptizes, we must as children of God request the baptism from our heart. Christ’s word tells us “yet ye have not, because ye ask not.” (James 4:2)


However, believers do not have to be baptized into the Holy Spirit to be SAVED and on their way to heaven. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit empowers believers to do His work, to boldly witness to the lost, and the power to pray for those who need healing. I truly believe that the following refers to those believers who have received the Baptism of the Holy
Ghost, as promised by Christ, that the Apostles received at Pentecost:

"17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."
Mark 16:17-20

The requirement to get into heaven is belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior:
Romans 10: 9-11
“9.That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

However, if you want the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, you have to ask for it. "Ye have not because ye ask not". I read a story once about a show girl from New York who was taking a bath, and decided that she wanted to accept Jesus Chris as her Lord and Savior. While she was in the tub she baptized herself in water. When she came out of the water she started speaking in tongues! She received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost because God knew her heart.


Sincerely,

Walter
:-)

Quote:

jerryaustin1 wrote:
Please only y give a response if you belive that the baptism of the Holy Ghost happens after conversion.

 2008/10/20 23:38









 Re:

Quote:
Please only give a response if you belive that the baptism of the Holy Ghost happens after conversion.



This is rather strange... why would you ask that only people who agree with you answer? What if you're incorrect, and someone else out there has the truth? Wouldn't you want to know the truth?

Anyway, this is a good opportunity for me to express my own understanding of the scriptures pertaining to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I believe when someone is saved they receive the Holy Spirit right then and there. You can not be saved and have not the Holy Spirit. It's impossible.

I do believe that we are "filled" with the Holy Spirit after conversion, in fact scripture teaches that it's something that should happen daily.

I do believe that something significant happens in a believers life subsequent to salvation. I believe Tozer referred to it as a "second blessing". I think it's God taking the believer to a new level of maturity.

But to answer your question, since I am one of the few pre-trib rapture people left on this forum... I categorically reject the notion that only those who have experienced the Pentecostal version of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit will be in the Rapture. Thats an elitist notion. You're either saved, or you're not saved. There are no "partially" saved people. There are not two classes of Christians.

Saved or not saved... period. End of story. Ba-deep-ba-deep-ba-deep... thats all folks!

So if your question comes from your concerns that you have not "experienced" the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit"... all I can say to you is:

1) you may never speak in tongues. Not everyone will. Billy Graham never has... Ravenhill never did... Tozer never did yet they are/were men who will mightly filled with the Holy Spirit. Scripture makes it clear in [b]I Corinthians 12: 28-31[/b] that God does NOT give the gift of tongues to every believer anymore than He gives the gift of teaching to every believer.

2) The Holy Spirit is [b]promised[/b] to every Christian... so how can some have the Holy Spirit and some not? The answer: Every Christian receives the Holy Spirit. To say that we should plead, ask, tarry etc in order for God to give us the Holy Spirit is to say that we did something in order to earn it.

3) If you are saved in Christ... and if there is a Rapture... you will be going up in it. Period.

Krispy

 2008/10/21 7:48
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1522
Germany NRW

 Re:

Hi Krispy,

You challenged me on issue yesterday and I was about to start a thread. Now somebody else has done it.

I do believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is distinguished from but subsequent to repentance, faith and water baptism and there is overwhelming evidence in the scriptures for that.

The Holy Spirit is not necessary for those who are satisfied to have the correct doctrine only.
He is not neccessary for those who have it all togehter and know the answer to everything.

The Holy Spirit is promised to everyone, but not everyone, in fact only a minority is desperate enough to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

You have to ask for Him or you may not receive Him.

I see it sometimes as a counter reaction to Charismatic chaos. There is even a book entitled "Charismatic Chaos"
Satan works a dual strategy as always.
Either people go into wild exaggerations and as a reaction others reject any envolvement in anything that smells Charismatic.

There was a small move of the Holy Spirit in my country Germany just about at the time of the Azusa Street and Welsh Revival. There were some strange manifestation that were likely caused by demons. Subsequently the whole move was condemned by most Christian leaders. Some go so far as to say that Adolf Hitler was God's judgement because of this rejection.

Can you go to heaven without being filled with the Spirit? Can you go to heaven without being baptized in water?
I would answer: What is the reason why you did not get filled with the Holy Spirit or baptized in water? Was is ignorance, indifference or rejection of this truth?

How do I know if I am filled with the Holy Spirit? When you can cry out Abba Father. The Spirit Himself will witness to you.

In addition to the bible verses quoted by others I would mention these:
Acts 10:44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.

Act 8
14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[c] the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


narrowpath

 2008/10/21 9:05Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Why did Jesus send the Holy Spirit? Why did He say He Himself would not leave us comfortless and would come Himself also?

The Holy Spirit is not Jesus Christ, even though they are One Spirit with the Father. For we are all baptized into One Spirit. The Holy Spirit shed no blood, the Holy Spirit did not hang on the Cross. The Holy Spirit is not life, only the Spirit of Christ by the Incorruptable See of the Father is Life. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher and works in the Soul of man. The Spirit of Christ is our rebirth and the life of all that are saved by the Father, new creatures in Christ.

The "another Comforter", who is the Holy Spirit who abides with us forever does what? To testify and teach Christ to the believers.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Who is our life, our life Comforter and who is the teacher of that life, another Comforter?

John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

So we have two Comforters, One to everlasting life which is Christ, and One to live with us forever declaring to us who Christ is and what He has said.

Spirit, Soul and Body.

Spirit, is Christ, Soul, where the Teacher Holy Spirit dwells, Body, clay pots, quickened to contain the God Head and all that God represents of His children, born of God by the Seed of Christ in us, making us son's of God also and lead by the Holy Spirit of Truth.

God is the One that sends the Holy Spirit and He is the One that Seals us into the life of Christ, new creatures in Christ Jesus, which we already have received, lest how could we be sealed.

The Holy Spirit Parakleet, Teacher is not the Spirit of Christ that gives us life, for without Christ's Spirit we are none of His and have no birth rights. But Baptized into all three, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, Which water baptism displays to all that see, we are now son's of God in Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit, signed, sealed and delivered.


In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/10/24 17:53Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Will only the christians that are baptizwed with the Holy Ghost go in the rapture


Please only y give a response if you belive that the baptism of the Holy Ghost happens after conversion.


I am post-tribulation in theology, though I do believe in a post-conversion Spirit baptism. Regardless of your view, the idea that only those who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit will go when the trumpet blows (no matter the timing) is entirely unbiblical.

May I be so bold as to say if somebody says otherwise, they are clearly enslaved to a works based theology, and thus, likely not even saved let alone filled with the Holy Spirit?


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Jimmy H

 2008/10/24 18:06Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re: Will only the christians that are baptizwed with the Holy Ghost go in the rapture

Quote:
Will only the christians that are baptizwed with the Holy Ghost go in the rapture?

Reply Please only y give a response if you belive that the baptism of the Holy Ghost happens after conversion.



This question is loaded with terms that need defining (Rapture, Conversion and Baptism with the Holy Spirit). I guess we should also ask can a person be baptized with the Holy Spirit [i]before[/i] conversion?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/10/24 19:29Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
May I be so bold as to say if somebody says otherwise, they are clearly enslaved to a works based theology, and thus, likely not even saved let alone filled with the Holy Spirit?



This depends on what is meant by Spirit Baptism, I think.

[color=000066]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (I Cor. 12:13)[/color]

Can a person be saved that is [u]not[/u] in the Body of Christ?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2008/10/24 19:33Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:


This depends on what is meant by Spirit Baptism, I think.


By "Spirit Baptism," I mean that "Pentecostal" (loaded term) experience whereby after one's conversion in which they are born-again (and receive the indwelling and sealing Spirit of God), that person receives a special "endument" with "power from on high," which equips the believer for effectual and powerful service.


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Jimmy H

 2008/10/24 19:42Profile





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