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Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
There seems to be a sort of 'universalist' attitude that prevails when people die, or an 'all roads lead to God' attitude if you like.



Here is a progression as I've often observed it.

1) A new convert holds the pure belief that the cross of Christ alone atones for sin, and justifies the sinner before God.

2) Soon afterwards this new Christian feels disillusionment in discovering that not all who confess Christ are genuine believers.

3) In seeking differentiation from hypocrites, the young believer adopts the notion that a healthy measure of personal sincerity in vital for making making a true Christian.

4) In reaction to shameless hypocrisy in the church, he continues to affirm the cross of Christ doctrinally, but actively begins to emphasize the practice of sincerity, repentance and sorrow as if they are sacraments, making one acceptable to God.

5) This project of insisting on demonstrations of true faith is frustrated by the observation that many non-christians exhibit better lives (in our judgement) then some Christians.

6) With his concerns for hypocrisy distracting him from the Savior, the young Christian is tempted to think that God would be unfair that he would allow some Christians to suffer for their faith, while others have an easier time in life. Indeed, he begins to admire the non-christian who suffers for their belief-system. This sense of injustice that a morally and spiritually sincere person is not acceptable to God, even though they seem to live better then the Christian, embarrasses the young Christian from preaching the sufficiency of Christ alone, lest he allows someone to escape the due penalty of their sin simply through faith alone. In his secret incredulity over the unfairness of the Gospel, he's well on his way to becoming a universalist.

This is simplistic I know...but I've seen this dynamic at work. It's a kind of logic rooted deep in the human heart.

MC




_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/10/22 12:29Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi enid...

Quote:
Why is it that there is no answers to these questions? None?

Well, we all know there is, but it seems people are afraid to reach conclusions.

There certainly is an answer to this question -- but I hesitate to state just who knows it (on this side of Eternity).

I don't think that we are "afraid" to reach conclusions. Rather, we might feel that it is wise to avoid teaching a conclusion as a fact. In many such matters (where the ultimate timing or supporting facts are not entirely clear), would it not be better to focus on the things that we DO know? For instance, we can proclaim that we should not die in sin. We can proclaim that to be "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." Yet we can avoid the doctrinal and overly-specific schisms that tend to divide or might even be incorrect (yet heavily taught or pursued).

I know that it is the desire of each and every one of us to be pure in our speech and doctrines. None of us want to be guilty of teaching something that might not be entirely clear -- or even understandable to our limited human minds and perspective. We have the mind of Christ, but we still see [i]through a glass darkly[/i] (I Corinthians 13). I do know, however, that when Christ returns -- we will know the definitive answer to this (and all other) questions!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/10/22 15:43Profile









 Re:

I wrote

Quote:
Thank you for reading this thread.

I am a little confused about the Bible and Judgement. Does Judgement Day happen each and every moment that someone dies? ...AND there will be the 'greater' Judgment Day when Christ returns? This would then mean that as soon as one dies that they go directly to heaven or hell...?

The reason I ask is because the pastor at the South Korean church that I attend made a statement two weeks ago that has not sat well within me.

An elder of the church died a few weeks ago and last week the pastor said that he is in heaven and we are to now enjoy a meal in his honor (we usually eat after each service, but this one was going to be 'extra special').

What I am having a problem with is not that the elder would make it to heaven or not, but whether or not a (any) pastor has that knowledge or right. Something that further bothers me is if this was someone who was not an elder, nor was saintly, but just a 'sunday Christian' whom had never received Christ and then the pastor casually said that he too 'was in heaven'.

I could go on, but I think I will only confuse myself even further. It just seems like a dangerous habit to get oneself into...proclaiming ones destination.

Am I wrong in questioning this? Am I judging?

Blessings.



then...

Quote:

enid wrote:
I think perhaps we forgot this scripture.

1 Peter 3v15,'But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.'

Why is it that there is no answers to these questions? None?

Well, we all know there is, but it seems people are afraid to reach conclusions.




It seems though that no one can really answer the first part of my question, but the second part I wonder more about...

...does a pastor have the knowledge, wisdom, or right to proclaim someones final destination?

 2008/10/23 1:20
jalex
Member



Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 1


 Re:

my name is johnson and may the Lord bless what im gonna say. im gonna start like this; if you believe you will see the glory of God, and ever since the day we believed in the lord, God the father instantly translated us from this kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his glorious Son Jesus Christ. this is home of all the believers. believers do not pass through judgement. for they have passed from death to life,from condemnation to justification. thei debt have been taken away. they are now covered with the spare robe of righteousness of christ that he has available for all who confesses his name. that is not say any who claims Jesus in any way or act that they too will go to the bosom of abraham. it is those whom the Lord has chosen that will go to be with him. for many are called but few are chosen. God bless u.

 2008/10/27 19:22Profile









 Re:

Although appreciated your response does not answer the question.

 2008/10/30 1:33
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3403
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: The pastor said...

Quote:
ilive4only1 2008/10/20 15:52
No you are not wrong in questioning. I do myself. Not that I speak as someone that knows a lot. I don't. But in the past eight months I have had a grandmother, aunt, uncle, and cousin to die. Every preacher seems to put them all in heaven.

Two of them I know were Christians. Not just by confession, but by the way they lived. Yet they all said they were Christians.


There is a message by Carter Conlon and in it he says when he first came to Times Square Church he was asked to do the funeral of a man who used to attend there and he was all prepared to speak on heaven. While he was sitting there the Lord showed him that if he preached that he was confuse everyone that this man worked with that was unsaved because this man professed Christianity but everyone he worked with knew how he acted.

So on the fly, Bro Carter followed the Lord's leading and preached on walking what you talk. For more men of God like that!

Quote:
Why is it that there is no answers to these questions? None?

Well, we all know there is, but it seems people are afraid to reach conclusions.


This is only one of a few possible answers but to delve into whether the people who died went to heaven or not when they clearly didn't live that way smacks sqarely on a person's belief system. And THAT brings in a whole other can of worms (antithesis)and they must begin to question their belief system: one possible belief system is once saved always saved.

And if a man or woman is not prepared to change their (thesis) belief system, they are not prepared to question anything regarding it.

Quote:
...does a pastor have the knowledge, wisdom, or right to proclaim someones final destination?


My humble opinion is no they don't. We have MORE of an accountability to those hearing a person's final message than to those lying in the coffin - like the Lord showed Carter (and I don't remember the title of his sermon, sorry).


_________________
Lisa

 2008/10/30 5:38Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
...does a pastor have the knowledge, wisdom, or right to proclaim someones final destination



Could we also rephrase the question;

"...does a pastor, unless aware of some specific proof of serious hypocrisy from the deceased person' life, have cause or right to question a Christian's final destination?"

MC



_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/10/30 9:30Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Compton wrote:
Quote:
...does a pastor have the knowledge, wisdom, or right to proclaim someones final destination



Could we also rephrase the question;

"...does a pastor, unless aware of some specific proof of serious hypocrisy from the deceased person' life, have cause or right to question a Christian's final destination?"

MC





Ok, I see your question and raise another. Knowing the Christian without any 'serious hypocrisy', is it Biblical (back to my original question) that all professing and true Christians go DIRECTLY to heaven once they die, and thus a pastor has the right to declare that destination?

 2008/11/7 0:09
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: The pastor said...

Personally, I would say they go into the presence of God and Christ, but this is not the heaven we are waiting for.

It is the same with hell,

[b]Revelation 20
14.[/b] Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

There is yet a death to come for those who are reserved unto the Day of Judgment and yet a joy to come for those who are waiting upon the Day of the Lord.

[b]Revelation 6
10.[/b] and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Thus, we are still waiting for the revelation of the new heaven and new earth.


The reason I make this distinction, to say that to be in the presence of God is not yet the heaven we are waiting for, is because this is still before the the Day when we shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye (these worldly bodies shall be made heavenly bodies, such as are fit for that place) and behold the Face of God, for then we shall be like Him. Whatever that means is too great for me to muddle over with eloquence.

When we are changed at that time, then we shall enter into the new heaven and new earth that has been prepared for us and receive there the inheritance of our faith through the forgiveness of our sins in Christ Jesus -- that glorious Gospel of peace with God.


With that closing remark, I recently heard such an amazingly stated description of the difference between heaven and hell, if I may share that here:


"[b]Hell is eternity in the presence of God.
And, Heaven is eternity in the presence of God [u]with a Mediator.[/u][/b]" -- R. A. Finlayson


_________________
Jordan

 2008/11/7 1:02Profile









 Re:

This week he said:

"To have a heart for the church, we must 1) pay our offering, 2) bring new people, and 3) help the church by cleaning it or some other activities." [Translated from Korean]



:-?

 2008/12/14 0:04





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