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Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
To accuse the Church of being WICKED, who need turn from her wicked ways before God can heal, is anti-christ!



I specifically said that those who were supposed to be righteous behaved wickedly and have no shame...

I've expressed my perspective. I would be happy to discuss that perspective. I don't have time to respond to the many ways you can rephrase what is said. However, I'll go along on this one.

What do we mean by 'healing' a land? Do we mean that the politicans will become Christians? That would be a welcome turn of events, but that still wouldn't 'heal' the land.

Returning to your ship metaphor; imagine there is a ship at sea with 100 shipmates, and only 2 of them are true Christians with character. The rest of crew is busy drinking, gambling, fighting and letting the ship fall apart. (It's why the ship invariable caught on fire.) Now imagine an evangelist came on board and, under the leading of the Holy Spirit, led half of the shipmates to Christ. Now instead of looking for handouts the repentant Christian crew members started putting in an honest days work. In no time at all, the general welfare of the ship would improve. The other shipmates, including the Captain, are still not Christians and are still without character, and are still living destructively while the honest men work. Nevertheless, because the righteous population aboard the ship have character, the result is that all are benefited and prosper aboard this ship. In this scenario, we can say that there was a healthy restoration of the crew aboard the ship. The ship isn't a Christian ship with a Christian flag, but nevertheless the collective character of it's crew is greatly improved, which greatly increases the survivability of the entire ship.

Likewise, when too many professing Christians live like the world, the general welfare of the nation suffers. For instance, my entire family was blessed when I repented. My wife and children experienced the blessings that comes with their husband and their father having an improved character. This is not to say they are going to heaven from my conversion, or even that my being saved opened up a heavenly fountain of blessing. Simply put, because I am more healthy, my family is going to be just a little more healthy, and they experience just a little less of sin's corrosive decay in the general welfare of the shared domestic sphere. Furthermore, my son has a better chance of choosing the right path for his family, because instead of a bad example, he has a much improved example to learn from. Again, these blessings are not an example of seeking after Babylon or of promoting dominion theology, but a derivative of just one man following Christ.

In both my examples, the wicked shipmates and the unsaved family members will still have to reckon their personal accounts with God, but nevertheless, because of the character and actions of a few righteous, they have more access to the fruit of honest labor such as increased security and health.

The blessings of a Godly saint upon the ship, family, or nation he is part of is just common sense, and is not a vote for Constantine.

Blessings rev,

MC



_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/10/15 12:28Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

MC, are you assuming that the NT Church comes under the same blessings as did Israel?

The Gospel is God's final announcement before His Wrath. We cannot stop or delay the wrath to come, as in the times of Nineveh. Yes, it was delayed, however Nineveh fell, just as God said.

If you say, too many professing Christians live like the world, then one might ask, what is your definition of Christian?

There will always be tares among the wheat, but a tare is a tare is a tare, and no hope of changing into wheat.

I believe I said the idea behind KingJimmy and all others concerned for our nation is noble, but the verse used to establish this bleeding heart liberal idea of another Gospel in place of the only one we are to be obedient to is not found in scripture.

After reviewing KingJimmy's web site that was the initial intention here to begin with in his original beginning post is what needs to be reviewed and brought to light as the motives.

Not only do I pray for our nation but all nations as well.

The Blessings and cursings upon any nation goes back to Abraham. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.

There are two YOU's here in Abraham. The YOU who are the church....As Isaac was...so are YOU....Birthed by God, through a promise. And the YOU of the Nation of Israel, the Elect, through Jacob.

If we curse either one, His Body, or His Beloved Israel, we need to repent as a Nation!

Blessings,

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/10/15 12:50Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

http://www.churchofhopeontheweb.org/articles/2Chron714.htm

Compton, here is a site you may want to gleen from. It appears many today feel the same as I do.

2 Chronicles 7:14 is the issue that this false teaching...no matter what it is, centers around.

Many are claiming that through this verse brings REVIVAL to Nations.

The Only thing that brings revival is the preaching of the Cross. Christ Crucified and Risen! Revival in NT times is to revive the dead in their sin, not the living in Christ, who have already been revived in the Risen Christ.

God deals with disobedient children, one bottom at a time! Those who are not dealt with are called illegitimate. What does God have to do with these. According to Hebrews....nothing at this time!

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

 2008/10/15 13:05Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Reflections on 2 Chronicles 7:14

Quote:
But no where are we called to convert Nations.



[b]Matthew 24
14[/b]. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."

[b]Matthew 28
19[/b]. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."


Actually, that is the definitive command -- "to convert Nations". As it so happens, the nations are comprised of many individual people and God desires that none of them should perish but that all receive the gift of everlasting life through His Son.


Quote:
There is no prophecy in the OT or New stating this covenant would be passed on to a Gentile Nation. We have no Kings as overseers sitting upon a throne, over America.



You will also notice [b]2 Chronicles 7:14[/b] says nothing about kings. And a side note, the Pope, though he is in my opinion probably the greatest example of the anti-Christ, is still in authority and therefore raised up by God to judge this ungodly generation. He is also to be blessed by us just as Hitler was in his time.

Neither is the context "If the [u]children of Israel[/u] ..."

But rather it is "If My people who are called by My Name ..."

So I guess if you do not desire to be called by His Name then indeed this does not apply to you.


[b]Romans 9
6[/b]. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
[b]7[/b]. nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "through Isaac your descendants will be named."
[b]8[/b]. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

[b]Galatians 3[/b]
[b]7[/b]. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
[b]8[/b]. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."


Notice the explicit connotations:

"those who are of faith are sons of Abraham"
"it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants"

So in a very literal sense, if we are born again according to the adoption as sons, we are descendants according to the Promise and fellow-heirs with the true children of Israel by faith through Christ Jesus.


Quote:
To assume My People refer only to the Body of Christ, (those individual believers In Christ) stating they are wicked and need to turn from their wicked ways, is an assault upon the Church and the Body of Christ.

The Church, His Body, is not wicked, but a chaste virgin, created in righteousness and holiness.



[b]1 John 1
8[/b]. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

The Church as a Body of individual believers, of whom Christ is the Head, just like a nation or kingdom (that is a nation raised up to be a royal priesthood), is to be [b]reckoned[/b] as dead to sin.

Are you trying to hold up a theology that says anyone who is wicked or sins is not part of the Body of Christ? Or that we are each without sin or wickedness in our hearts?


Quote:
And yes, we are to pray for the lost souls of this world. But 2 Chronicles 7:14 is not, in any way making the same statement. They are praying for their LAND, not lost souls.



The word used for LAND in [b]2 Chronicles 7:14[/b] can be used to indicate the territory or the inhabitants of the land. Now, there are two implications here.

1) the land itself, as the OT had a lot of earthly fulfillments, to grow crops and livestock, etc..

2) the people themselves to be healed and delivered of sicknesses and diseases and slavery. Not to mention, if the land, ground, prospered the inhabitants would naturally prosper.

Especially considering if God's people obey and seek Him then He "will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

The idea here is a holistic redemption: heaven, forgive sin, and land.

We may easily recognize this to mean: spirit, soul, and body, respectively.

Likewise, as it is promised, "all the nations will be blessed in you;" if the church is prospering in the riches of glory in Christ Jesus then will not God hear our prayers, will He not forgive our sin, will He not redeem the lost and renew the face of the earth with fire?



Now, I also agree with you when you said the following,
Quote:
In OT Israel, earthly blessings were attached to their obedience. The Church however is no longer part of the world, and does not seek after earthly blessings. WE are blessed in Heavenly places IN CHRIST JESUS. This doctrine also leads to and is steeped in the Prosperity false doctrine teachings. It simply does not belong to the Church.



This is absolutely true. However, I have also just showed this blessing is also understood as a blessing received in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

But we should not entirely throw out the "prosperity doctrine" insofar as it is properly weighed and balanced against eternity. You will recall the well-known verse, "Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and all these other things shall be added unto you."

The "other things" are obviously those things the Lord knows we have need of. So there is an element of earthly prosperity that remains. Yet, this is by no means a guarantee or promise of fatness or comfort. Personally, I see the "prosperity" in worldly terms as it was prayed in this way:

[b]Proverbs 30
7[/b]. Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die:
[b]8[/b]. Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
[b]9[/b]. Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.



I may be mistaken Rev. Ben, but it almost seems like you are so repulsed by "Kingdom Now" theology (and rightly so) that you are throwing out many of the commands and promises of God.

As it also ought to be remembered that it is not we who are yet kings and priests but He Who is in us, our glorious King and High Priest; He is the One Who is greater than he who is in the world.

[b]Matthew 28
18[/b]. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[b]Acts 1
8[/b]. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me...

Because Christ abides in us and we in Him (if indeed we are His) we are kings and priests insofar as we are in Him. This is important because of the fact that if we were not priests through faith in Christ then we could not pray and intercede unto our Father. And if we were not kings through faith in Christ then the demons would not be subject unto us by His Name nor would we be partakers of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the edification of the church and, again, to be witnesses unto the nations.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/10/15 14:09Profile
live4jc
Member



Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re: Reflections on 2 Chronicles 7:14


Dear RevBenjamin,

You had written :

“Revival in NT times is to revive the dead in their sin, not the living in Christ, who have already been revived in the Risen Christ.

God deals with disobedient children, one bottom at a time!”




I believe that a Christian is justified by faith in Christ and by his blood. However, the Bible describes the sins a Christian can commit as ‘filth’ etc. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says : "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.."

I agree that God holds us morally responsible only for our own sins. However, as far as maintaining the purity of the church which reflects on the impact of the church, I also believe that he calls us to be responsible for the sins of other members in the church. 1 Corinthians 5:6 says, “Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?”. One commentary I read on this verse explains it this way :

“It does not take much leaven to infect the whole lump of bread. A small amount of leaven will spread through the whole lump of dough. Leaven here stands for evil influence. It ferments with putrefaction, with rottenness. Tolerance of incest in the congregation will spread its corrupting influence into the entire congregation.”


In Revelations, I see Christ dealing with the ‘churches’; the church of Ephesus, the church of Sardis etc. Also, Paul’s letters were addressed to churches as a whole.

In Revelations 3:14-22 we read about the message to the church of Laodicea, which Christ describes as “wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.” He urges this church to “repent”. Then in Revelations 2 : 1-7 he addresses the church of Ephesus, again urging this church to repent and in verse 5 he says ,”or else I will remove your candlestick out of its place”. A ‘repentant church’ seems to be much the same thing as a ‘revived church’.



To me the candlestick speaks, among other things, to the influence that this church would have on the unbelieving world.

Also, in Christ’s Sermon on the Mount message he said, “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored?”
Matthew 5 :13

God bless you,
John

 2008/10/15 14:14Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

Quote:
14. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."



Yes, the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven preached in Matthew will be preached before the end comes.

However NOW is preached the Gospel according the Mystery.

I believe the real issue lies here. The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven is that Kingdom preached, the Millennial Kingdom Reign, taking place after the rapture of the church. The church is called to the Gospel according to the Mystery, Christ in you.

The Gospel of the Kingdom, speaks on this...on earth as it is in Heaven.

Things will not be on earth as it is in Heaven until Jesus Christ returns.

You are wanting to co-mingle law and grace, by stating we have earthly blessings as well as heavenly blessings. Paul tells us a little Leaven ruins the whole lump.

Those of OT 2 Chronicles 7:14 had a KING through the line of Judah sitting on the throne at the time of this verse, calling that Nation, Israel into repentance, a nation under LAW, not Grace. We are not under OT Law, but under Grace.

This Covenant under Law was given to Israel alone, and no Mosaic Law was ever passed on to a Gentile Nation placing any King of Judah on a throne.

You make a most remarkable statement that makes me gasp in shock,
Quote:
You will also notice 2 Chronicles 7:14 says nothing about kings. And a side note, the Pope, though he is in my opinion probably the greatest example of the anti-Christ, is still in authority and therefore raised up by God to judge this ungodly generation. He is also to be blessed by us just as Hitler was in his time.




God did not raise up Hitler to judge anyone. We are living in the age of GRACE, not God's Judgement and wrath.

Your argument is a straw man at best, and anti-Semitic at most.

A witches brew of this and that, making no sound stand for the Gospel in any way.

Christians are being murdered in Somalia for being OBEDIENT to preaching the Gospel.

Christians are called to SUFFER with Christ, and carry the sufferings of Christ.

You want your cake and you want to eat it too!

I can't help you out here, you're on your own!

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/10/15 14:30Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
God deals with disobedient children, one bottom at a time!



Well, it may be that you and I aren't so far apart after-all.

I would agree there is some troubling overlap between the law, the Gospel, and the Nation of Israel and the New Covenant relationship through Christ. I understand there might be some resemblance in what I said to dominion theology. (A term brandied so loosely today that it seems that anyone who isn't praying for violent persecution is suspected of having Babylonian sympathies.)

So let me say I appreciate what you are saying. I was only trying to point out that I think you are reading too much into the things Jimmy was saying.

To further build understanding here between us let me freely admit two pitfalls that can come in some of the viewpoints I expressed.

One of the banner sermons of this website is Ten Shekels and a Shirt. The central premise is that preaching the Gospel for man's benefit is missing the central purpose of bringing God his deserved glory. Likewise, emphasizing only the benefits of the Gospel upon society will inevitably puts the Church on an idolatrous seeker-sensitive vector...a corrupted direction that I feel, if not halted and repented of, leads to rank universalism.

The other possible critique of what I shared is simply that by emphasizing earthly benefits we have replaced the gospel with the law. Many Christian 'principles' today seem to suggest that if we obey perfectly we can live without suffering or pain...a falsehood I patently reject from both NT scripture and experience as a Christian.

The balance to these critiques of any belief that observes the earthly blessings of Christianity, including your concern of dominionism, is to remember that these things are simply derivatives of the Gospel...not the message itself.

The US army offers enlisters a chance to go to college. However, a man enlists in the army to be a soldier, not to get a free college education. If he signs up for the college education, he might feel he has been misled when he goes to war. The problem is with his understanding of the terms of enlistment. Nevertheless, in the army there has been established a relationship between going to college and going to war. The two aren't the same thing at all, but they share an appositional relationship.

Likewise the kingdom of heaven and the earthly nation state aren't the same either. Nevertheless, they do share an appositional relationship. The Christian is being made to glorify God and to desire heaven first and foremost. Yet it is this very crucible of character that makes him a benefit to the Earth. His honesty benefits society. His hard work benefits his society. His love benefits society. His piety benefits society. His fear of God benefits society. His humily benefits society.

And his willingness to die for truth ultimately benefits society...even if only as a witness to the truth. The Christian benifits society preceisely because he does not bow to the idols of society.

The carnal man can hold Christian ideals, but only the Christian can live by Christian principles through the life that lives in him. The Christian is both sectarian from the world (love not the world) and sacrificed for the world (For God so loved the World...) His visible life on earth is not the same as his hidden life in Christ, yet he still seeks to live righteously in both places.

MC







_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/10/15 14:34Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

MC, I appreciate your thoughts here, and blessed we can come to a meeting of the mind of Christ in us.

Keep your eye on Glory!

Exodus 24:16
And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

Exodus 40:34
Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.


That was then.



This is NOW

1 Peter 4:12-14

12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.


This shall come.

Romans 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


So many preach today that America has lost the Shekinah Glory of God. Let me ask you, did it ever have it to begin with? That is called Presumptuous!


Christ in you...the Hope of GLORY!!!!

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

 2008/10/15 15:00Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

John,

Matthew 16:6
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Galatians 5:9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

My reference to leaven is to this: Legalism.

Mixing Law and Grace and coming up with another Gospel as Paul would clearly state, is accursed.

When we die to the Law we also died to sin. Romans 7. Shall we continue to sin tht Grace may abound...God forbid....we died to sin.


In the letters to the Churches, it is stated more than anything else the blessings to the over comers. We also know we don't overcome sin, but died to sin.

We overcome the world, and all that is in the world. We overcome the wicked one who would draw us back into the world and worldly systems. We also overcome those who would put us under Law, robbing us of our liberty in Christ.

2 Chronicles 7:14 was spoken under Law, to those under Law.

Quote:
“It does not take much leaven to infect the whole lump of bread. A small amount of leaven will spread through the whole lump of dough. Leaven here stands for evil influence. It ferments with putrefaction, with rottenness. Tolerance of incest in the congregation will spread its corrupting influence into the entire congregation.”



You are absolutely correct. Putting those under law, also puts one back under sin and the flesh.

Matthew also states to enter into the Kingdom, one must cut off a hand.

Under Grace, flesh and blood cannot enter in, and the Cross has taken care of our hands, feet, eyes, ears, the whole of man...not just bits and pieces of man.

Paul's whole argument is this....I am ( all of me) is Crucified with Christ....no longer I but Christ in me.....

God Bless,

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/10/15 15:37Profile
live4jc
Member



Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re:



I find that when I get into discussions like this one and others, it's sometimes good to take a step back and remember...all those who have been bought by the blood of Christ are my brothers and sisters in Christ.

As such, I love you as my brothers and sisters
:-)

In Jesus,
John



 2008/10/15 15:50Profile





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