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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Reflections on 2 Chronicles 7:14

Recently at church, I had the opportunity to teach a group Bible study during a cell group. The passage we explored was 2 Chronicles 7:14 which says:

If My people who are called by My name would humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin and heal their land.

I would encourage you to listen to the following teaching along with the discussion that took place (due to a number of factors, the group discussion was edited/compressed). If there ever were a teaching we need to grasp in America, I believe this is one we ought to grasp and hold on to:

Reflections on 2 Chronicles 7:14 (6.7 MB Download / 57 minutes)


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Jimmy H

 2008/10/12 23:32Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: Reflections on 2 Chronicles 7:14

Any thoughts of your own?


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Jimmy H

 2008/10/13 8:30Profile
RevBenjamin
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Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

KingJimmy,

The scripture you have placed here is that which is spoken to Israel...a Theocracy under Law, to Israel and Israel alone.

There is no prophecy in the OT or New stating this covenant would be passed on to a Gentile Nation. We have no Kings as overseers sitting upon a throne, over America.


Romans 9:3-5 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen

Unfortunately Replacement Theology has replaced the Abrahamic Covenant of individual salvation based upon the finished work of Christ, becoming Children of promise, As Isaac was so are we to a National Salvation.

We know Israel as a Nation was never saved.

To apply this scripture to a group you would call My People as if America is now My People is not only presumptuous sin but at the height of arrogance.

To assume My People refer only to the Body of Christ, (those individual believers In Christ) stating they are wicked and need to turn from their wicked ways, is an assault upon the Church and the Body of Christ.

The Church, His Body, is not wicked, but a chaste virgin, created in righteousness and holiness.

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

 2008/10/13 10:32Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:


There is no prophecy in the OT or New stating this covenant would be passed on to a Gentile Nation.


Who ever said it was passed onto another nation? This promise was made with "My people." There are not two peoples of God, but one. The land, while in 2 Chronicles 7:14, God is specifically talking about the geographical land of Israel, upon which His eye is upon. However, that doesn't mean it cannot apply to the land in which we live. Jeremiah reminds the exiles to pray for the welfare of the nations where they have been scattered:


Jeremiah 29:4 Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon, 5 Build houses and live in them; and plant gardens and eat their produce. 6 Take wives and become the fathers of sons and daughters, and take wives for your sons and give your daughters to husbands, that they may bear sons and daughters; and multiply there and do not decrease. 7 Seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the LORD on its behalf; for in its welfare you will have welfare.

You said:

To apply this scripture to a group you would call My People as if America is now My People is not only presumptuous sin but at the height of arrogance.


I am not calling America "My people." That would be a statement of uttermost arrogance if I were to do so... something which many Christians seemingly do. I'm simply saying for those who constitute "My people" dwelling in the midst of America, we are to pray for our nations welfare, just as Jeremiah exhorted the remnant who were in exile.

You said:


The Church, His Body, is not wicked, but a chaste virgin, created in righteousness and holiness.


James wrote the following exhortation to the church:


James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.


The Christian life is one of continual repentance. One need not be living in any active and continuous sin to qualify for this. For even if we are living in no present sin, we are still continuing on the path of repentance from our old life. Sadly though, walking in continual victory is not always an abiding reality for the church. In the former instance, the repentance message is still necessary. If appropriate in the former instance, how much more appropriate is it in the latter?


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Jimmy H

 2008/10/13 11:02Profile
RevBenjamin
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Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

James 4:4Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

5Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

6But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

KingJimmy, I like to look at verses before and after to get a deeper and clearer understanding of what is being spoken.

It is so easy to just lift any verse out of context that you hope will apply to a doctrine.

James is not talking to a Nation but to individual believers IN CHRIST, still in a carnal state of worldliness.

You will notice with these verses James does not promise that any land or nation they are attached to or living in will be healed due to their obedience.

James as well as Peter were both Apostles to the dispersed of Israel as Paul to the Gentiles. NONE of the Apostles promise lands being healed as a condition of Christian obedience.

Let me ask you KingJimmy. If the handful of Believers in Somalia are obedient, will Somalia be healed?

This teaching leads Christians to look down and around to see what they can do, rather than UP....waiting for the Lord of Glory.

It teaches a false doctrine that the Church is to take dominion of this earth and try to fix the problems.

This is NOT the Gospel.

Blessings,
R.G. Benjamin

 2008/10/13 12:26Profile
RevBenjamin
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Joined: 2007/10/27
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 Re:


KingJimmy, I would also like to add; What you are teaching is in direct opposition and disobedience to the following scriptures.


Colossians 3
1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Blessings,

R.G. Benjamin

 2008/10/13 12:37Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:


KingJimmy, I like to look at verses before and after to get a deeper and clearer understanding of what is being spoken... James is not talking to a Nation but to individual believers IN CHRIST, still in a carnal state of worldliness


What do you think we Christians are? We are not merely individuals. Though, of course, we are that. But rather, we are a nation, citizens of another kingdom, ruled by another king. Indeed, James has in mind (obviously) those believers who are still having a "fit of carnality," and are still clinging to old thought patterns and ways of life. Paul had the same problem with the Corinthians. John had the same problem with most the churches in Asia-Minor. The verse I quoted, far from being ripped from context, has a context which is most appropriate.


You will notice with these verses James does not promise that any land or nation they are attached to or living in will be healed due to their obedience.


This is true. But just because one Bible verse doesn't teach something doesn't mean others don't.


NONE of the Apostles promise lands being healed as a condition of Christian obedience.


Indeed, off the top of my head, I can think of no verse written by the apostles that directly teaches the same thing uttered in 2 Chronicles 7:14. But being that there is no such thing as a "canon within a canon," and being that we must look at the whole counsel of God's word, no overt teaching from their writings need be supplied. Otherwise you run into the problem of creating a canon within a canon.

As Gentiles, we have been made joint-heirs with Christ of God's promises and covenants. We are fellow citizens with the saints, part of the commonwealth of Israel, and partakers of the covenants (Ephesians 2:11-22) There is one people of God, not two. Thus, we stand in continuity with the Old Testament saints. They were raised up to be a people of God's own possession, a holy nation, and a royal priesthood. We too, through our union with Christ, have entered into that. Thus, the promises made to the fathers, which were confirmed by Christ (Romans 15:8), are available to us by the same faith by which it was made available to them.

Thus, promises such as 2 Chronicles 7:14 exhort God's people to repent. Indeed, had there been more righteous within Sodom and Gomorrah, those nations would remain even to this day. Why? Because God's people are a nation of priests who, by virtue of their priesthood, are able to mediate God's blessings in tangible ways, and intercede on behalf of the nations in which they dwell.

Thus, the same Elijah who shut the heavens through prayer, was also able to pray that it rain again. This man, who was of the same nature we are, we are given as an example to imitate. For the effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much (James 5:16-17). If Elijah's prayer was able to bring in God's judgment, it was also able to bring the rain that showered the nation with God's mercy. Shall it not be the same with us?


This teaching leads Christians to look down and around to see what they can do, rather than UP....waiting for the Lord of Glory.


Those who are heavenly minded are of earthly good. 2 Chronicles 7:14 is not an exhortation to look "down and around." Rather, it is an exhortation to look up. Indeed, it is a verse to correct those who have been doing nothing but merely looking down and around. But while looking down and around, something caught their attention (the judgments of God), which when paired with a corrective word, caused them to look up.


It teaches a false doctrine that the Church is to take dominion of this earth and try to fix the problems.


Brother, I believe such a comment shows you are arguing with shadows. I am in no way an advocate of "taking dominion" of the earth in the name of Jesus. But that doesn't mean we can't be a tangible source of blessing in the midst of a world under judgment. Indeed, the problems will never be fixed, not until there are a new heavens and new earth.


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Jimmy H

 2008/10/13 13:22Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:


KingJimmy, I would also like to add; What you are teaching is in direct opposition and disobedience to the following scriptures.

Colossians 3
1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


Once again, if we are truly heavenly minded we will be of earthly good.


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Jimmy H

 2008/10/13 13:25Profile
live4jc
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Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re: Reflections on 2 Chronicles 7:14

Hi RevBenjamin,

This is an interesting point that you make about replacement theology. From my perspective, there are many Old Testament passages that refer to Israel alone and could not be applied to the church. I wonder if there are some scriptures though, which might be applicable to both Israel and the church. The question this prompts is, how would we know which scriptures these are ? Generally, ‘context’ is what guides us in our interpretation of the Scripture and would enable us to make the distinction. Having said this, when you look at the ‘messianic prophecies’, many of these Old Testament prophecies could only be recognized as prophecies after the fact (after Christ came), and not before.

In the Hebrides revival, the people were motivated to pray regularly for revival based on the idea that God was a covenant keeping God, as revealed in 2 Chronicles 7:14. In fact, at certain points when the people reminded God of these covenants, through prayer, it appears that He responded in a powerful fashion that seemed to indicate that he was honoring these covenants.

However, it is possible that the connection between what these people asked (on a covenant basis) and how God responded, may have been in a sense ‘circumstantial’. Maybe his blessing upon this people had simply to do with the fact that they prayed without ceasing and purified their hearts, and so it could be that ‘the prayers of righteous men and women availed much’.

I think the experience of the Hebrides revival does lend some credence to the possibility that certain Old Testament covenants apply to the church as well though, and makes this topic worthy of further investigation. Maybe a good question to ask is, do we find any record of the apostles making references to any Old Testament covenants ( originally meant for Israel) and applying them to the church ?

In Jesus,
John

 2008/10/13 13:42Profile
live4jc
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Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re: Reflections on 2 Chronicles 7:14


Hi RevBenjamin,

As far as Kingdom Theology or Dominion Theology, I believe these are doctrines to be concerned about and to stay far away from. I see this theology as saying that Christians can restore the Earth and all its kingdoms (political kingdoms, social kingdoms etc) to Christ. In other words, we can ‘Christianize the Earth’, in contrast to the focus being on changing the hearts of individuals, through salvation in Christ. Kingdom Theology is all about us becoming powerful, becoming little kings and queens who set up Christ’s reign on Earth, in a sense.

In contrast, when I see people applying 2 Chronicles 7:14 to the church, most often I see the emphasis being on humility and not on power, at least not on our power, but on God’s power. From what I have seen throughout church history, revivals have always been preceded by God’s people praying and God honoring these prayers. For sure, he is sovereign in when he chooses to revive his people, but he always revives them at times when they have exercised obedience, through prayer and repentance. If it turns out that 2 Chronicles is being misapplied or misunderstood here, my impression is that the motive behind the application of this scripture would be different from the motives that are behind Kingdom Theology.

Love in Christ :-)
John





 2008/10/13 13:45Profile





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