SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Law

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that,when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.

(Jesus died to set us free from sin, or, "the transgression of the law.")

Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.

Little children let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.

He that committeth sin is of the Devil; for the Devil sinneth from the beginning.

For this purpose was the Son of God manifested, that He might destroy the works of the Devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the Devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." 1 John 3.

The new creation does not sin. When we walk in His Spirit, we do not sin, or, "transgress the law." 1 John 3:4.

Jesus said, "MANY" will call Him, Lord, Lord, but will be lost, because they are workers of lawlessness. Mt 7:21-23.

Paul told Timothy, ""I thank God, whom I serve with pure conscience..." 2 Tim 1:3.

I serve Him with a pure conscience...and I trust if otherwise, the Holy Spirit will convict me, I will repent (and change) and be changed into His likeness.

Jesus said, "He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My Words, hath one that judgeth him, THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY." John 12:48.

Do you want His Word to judge you, or, do you want to hear Him say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant?"

 2008/9/19 21:21Profile
harvestnow
Member



Joined: 2008/9/18
Posts: 9


 Re: The Law

Hi sscr01, your distinction between the ceremonial law and the moral law is good, but the reason the moral law applies to Christians is because it is a reflection of God's unchanging moral character and what God's love is like, not because we as Christians are under the law (Gal 5:18).

If his love is poured into our hearts by his Spirit (Rom 5:5), and we obey his commandment to love him and each other (that you have several quotes about) then we will fulfill the law of love ("love is the fulfillment of the law" Rom 13:8-10, also see James 2:8 and many others!). This love will not be in contradiction to the Ten Commandments, because they show what true love is like, and divine love doesn't offend God or hurt our neighbour (through blasphemy, adultery, stealing etc).

However, we can't love from our own strength and fulfill the law, our hearts are totally depraved. Any fleshly law keeping is futile (Romans 7) because only God can change the heart and this requires the supernatural ongoing work of God's Spirit to sanctify (Romans 8).

An emphasis only on the law in the Christian life without the Spirit is legalism ("for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" 2 Cor 3:6), and it doesn't do justice to the doctrine of total depravity and our inability to please God or love apart from by his grace.

Again, "love is the fulfillment of the law" (Rom 13:8-10) and we only "love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19), not because love is a law we have to try and keep, it is impossible to love through rules. If our hearts have been regenerated, and we are walking in step with the Spirit (Gal 5:25), then our default is towards love, not sin.

Chris


_________________
Chris

 2008/9/19 22:09Profile
harvestnow
Member



Joined: 2008/9/18
Posts: 9


 Re: The Law

Hi again sscr01! When you quote lots of verses with little commentary, and only interact with a few of the points raised by others, it is difficult to have a constructive conversation. If you could also discuss the "big picture" of the Pauline Epistles and themes in Scripture, and how different sections of Scripture relate to each other, then your hermeneutics would be more sound. If we take a string of verses with no reference to other verses that speak about the same topic with a different emphasis (i.e. the law and the Spirit), then we could construct any unbalanced doctrine we want to.

I am very interested in what point you are trying to make, are you trying to say the law is the most important thing, or a very important tool in the Christians life?? If so, in what way?? How does this relate to the whole thrust of pneumatology (theology of the Holy Spirit) in the Pauline Epistles??

Paul seemed very keen to not let Jewish pseudo-Christians put the law on Gentiles, in fact he said this was "no gospel at all", a perversion of the gospel, and that these legalists were under God's curse (Gal 1:6-9). In fact the united early Jewish church told the new Gentile believers they didn't have to keep the law: "Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, 'The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.'" ... [The council's final decision however was:] "We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said ... It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell."(Acts 15:5, 24, 28-29).

Paul's answer to how the Christian lives a holy, loving life is not to be saved by grace, and then try and live by the law, but to be saved and live by grace through the Spirit (cf. Rom 8 and Gal 5, the two pinnacles of two of the tallest cathedrals that stand in the NT).

Paul is so emphatic on expounding the Holy Spirit as being the key to living the Christian life, throughout his epistles (particularly Romans and Galatians). Why have you not mentioned the Spirit at all in your discussion yet?? How can the law in the Christian life be discussed without mention of the Spirit?? (It is very useful to investigate how these twin themes develop through the book of Romans)

Chris


_________________
Chris

 2008/9/19 22:18Profile
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

harvestnow,

Please read the distinction between the Ceremonial Law and the Ten Commandment Covenant. The Ceremonial law was fulfilled and abolished at the cross, The Ten Commandment Covenant was not.

The Old Covenant was the Ten Commandment Law. Deut 4:12; Ex 34:28. It was based upon the promise of the people. Ex 24:7. The New Covenant is based upon the promise of God:

"But this shall be the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Jer 31:31-34;Ezek 36:26,27;Mt 26:28;Heb 8:10 - An internal Covenant.

WHO is He speaking of? Paul answers. "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made, He saith not, And to thy seeds, as of many: but as of one, And to thy seed which is Christ." "And IF ye be Christ's, then are YE Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise." Ga 3:16,29;Ga 25:5.

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Ga 3:7.

"For he is not a Jew, who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: BUT HE IS A JEW, WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Rom 2:28,29.

We are the children of Abraham. And God has written His Covenant in our hearts and minds.

That is why Jesus said, that, if a man looks upon a woman to lust, he has, already, committed adultery with her in his heart. Or, if we are angry with our brother without cause, we are guilty of murder.

And as to providing the Word of God, I would say, 2 Tim 3:16 reads in the Greek, "Every Scripture is God breathed..."

There is no life in the opinions and traditions of men - the, only, life is in His Word.

 2008/9/20 7:09Profile
harvestnow
Member



Joined: 2008/9/18
Posts: 9


 Re: The Law

Hi sscr01, thanks I did read that distinction you made and commented on it two posts below, I appreciated the distinction you made.

As to commentary on Scripture, Jesus and the NT writers didn't just string together lots of OT verses in their teaching, but rather they explained them.

Likewise, every reformation and evangelical teacher also has commented on Scripture, rather than just strung verses together. We can't escape having some kind of theology, but we can escape having a bad theology. Also, teaching is a spiritual gift that the Holy Spirit uses to benefit the wider body of Christ.

Tradition is inescapable to some degree. The "Great Tradition" (such as doctrines like the Trinity) is under Scripture itself, but is nevertheless very important. Otherwise, you are in effect saying that the Holy Spirit is no longer in charge of directing his church into all truth and that all the collective wisdom and experiences of more godly and smarter saints than ourselves, down the centuries, is worthless. That seems arrogant and foolish.

Even Jesus grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52) and listened, asked questions, and understood the contemporary theology and practice of the Pharisees as a child (Luke 2:41-45), before he critiqued it as an adult. Likewise, with Paul in Athens (Acts 17:16-34).

We must be careful, in our individualistic Western society, to not reject God's storehouse of wisdom and truth found in church history. We all come to Christianity under a particular brand or tradition which teaches us certain interpretations, none of us are without presuppositions.

However we can, through the leading of the Spirit, critique and correct errors in other's understanding and doctrine (" ...encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it" Titus 1:9). But we need to be aware of what doctrine we hold and how it contrasts with others, but also critique our own doctrine ("Watch your life and doctrine closely." 1 Tim 4:16).

But it is arrogant to assume we are beyond human influence and our thinking is beyond all doctrinal categories. Paul tells us we only "know in part" (1 Cor 13:12).

Thanks for your explanation, but I am still not sure what point you are trying to make about the law. I hope my critique has not been to forceful.

God bless,
Chris


_________________
Chris

 2008/9/20 9:08Profile
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

Jesus said, "He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My Words, hath one that judgeth him: THE WORD THAT I HAVE SPOKEN, THE SAME SHALL JUDGE HIM IN THE LAST DAY." John 12:48.

"For as many have sinned without the law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW;

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified.(Mt 7:21-23)

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." Rom 2:12-16.

The Lord declares, that, His Word - His law will judge us.

Our allegiance must be to the Word - the Law of God.

 2008/9/20 10:05Profile
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

The Apostle Paul wrote, "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas (Peter); and I of Christ.

IS CHRIST DIVIDED? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" 1 Cor 1:12,13.

The denominational system, was never God's plan for His church. He calls the Catholic/Protestant religious system, "The Mother of harlots." Rev 17.

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of HER SINS ("the transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4) and that ye receive not of HER PLAGUES.

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." (LAWLESSNESS) Rev 18:4,5.

He charges the Catholic/Protestant religious system, with "SIN" and "LAWLESSNESS."

Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I KNOW THEM,(Mt 7:21-23; 1 John 2:3,4) and they follow Me." John 10:27

How do we "Come out?" By doing as the Bereans: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received THE WORD with all readiness of mind, searching the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, AND MAY ENTER IN through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14.

Keeping His commandments is not optional.

 2008/9/20 10:13Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Quote;

"What does the Scripture say about loving God and others?
Jesus said, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15"

There is no asterisk beside the teaching Jesus gives on the law.
The reason being is that if I love my brother I will not defraud him. It is automatic.

If I try mechanically with a law "punch list" I will fail.
If I Obey Jesus and walk in love , the law will be automatically be applied to my life,walk,and those around me.
Jesus didn't say "on the emotion love be careful to walk in the law because you can't trust your emotions."
You have the cart before the horse.

Jesus said "on love Hangs all law" Not,"on law hangs your sanctification". In other words the law is a reference point of sin,but sin is now revealed in a much better way. Namely the Holy Spirit. (I myself become convicted,or I can help bring conviction to my brother) Through the Holy Spirit.



This adds understanding to what Jesus meant when he said "I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it"
Basically walking in love is the fulfillment of the law.
Love is more than emotion.
Ever heard the line "he ain't heavy he's my brother?"
God is love and yet he loves.
One of these is emotion and one is "essence"

Why do you think there is a lack of mercy,kindness and forbearance in the body of Christ?
Do you think being "lawful" could be the root of much sorrow and division in the body?

We need a baptism of love if we are going to properly represent the kingdom.

And in light of this it behooves every single one of us to "reinvent" ourselves!

 2008/9/20 10:40Profile
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

The Scripture says, "If ye love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15.

Jesus said, "He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, HE IT IS THAT LOVETH ME: AND HE THAT LOVETH ME SHALL BE LOVED OF MY FATHER,AND I WILL LOVE HIM, and will manifest Myself to him." John 14:21.

"By THIS we know that we love the children of God (Greatest Commandment #2), when we love God (#1) and keep His commandments. FOR THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and His commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:2,3.

"HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT GRIEVOUS."

"And this is love that we walk after His commandments." 2 John 6.

Although, Abraham is the father of the faithful (Ga 3:7,29), he, also, kept the law:

"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of the heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries, and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

BECAUSE that Abraham OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept MY CHARGE, MY COMMANDMENTS, MY STATUTES, and MY LAWS." Gen 25:4,5.

"And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY HIM." Heb 5:9.

 2008/9/20 14:16Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Psalm 119


97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. 98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. 99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. 100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. 101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word. 102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me. 103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

The law that the psalmist writes about in the above Scripture is defined by this Scripture

Isaiah 11:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

This same Scripture of Psalm 119 also defines this same precept found in the book of Hebrews...however, the Hebrews lack understanding because they have not done as the writer of Psalm 119 has done.

Hebrews 5:
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2008/9/22 18:19Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy