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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

I havent come to a final belif on this, i see truths in both, but i think i see in scripture clear indications one can be saved at one point, but the eternal end of that person is lost forever.

concider these scriptures

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Jesus explains that the candlesticks are the church, not a fake church but a real church, but unless they repented they would not be that in Gods eyes any more. It was not ant "great" sin by human eyes, but for God this was enough to cancel them as a church!

unless God makes "empty" threats?

i have many times looked at it and it is a sobering part of scripture.

also other parts, like in hebrews where the writer says and warns us to be like the unbeliving murmuring jews in the desert, so the same thing dont happend to us.

do we belive those verses ? do we understand them rightly?



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CHRISTIAN

 2008/9/17 16:04Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4502


 Re:

Hi hmmmhmmm...

Quote:
concider these scriptures

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Jesus explains that the candlesticks are the church, not a fake church but a real church, but unless they repented they would not be that in Gods eyes any more. It was not ant "great" sin by human eyes, but for God this was enough to cancel them as a church!

unless God makes "empty" threats?

i have many times looked at it and it is a sobering part of scripture.

also other parts, like in hebrews where the writer says and warns us to be like the unbeliving murmuring jews in the desert, so the same thing dont happend to us.

do we belive those verses ? do we understand them rightly?

Great point from the Scriptures, brother! It just seems like there are many such warnings about departing from the faith. Another very "clear" warning is found in 2 John 1:8-9:
Quote:
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

...and in Hebrews 10:26-29:
Quote:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

These are interesting verses to consider when discussing such a topic.


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Christopher

 2008/9/17 16:13Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

a horrible fate for the lost

But this is for the redeemed;

1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.


Man! that is awesome!


David

 2008/9/17 21:26Profile
BrianPaul
Member



Joined: 2007/10/3
Posts: 68
Moorpark, CA

 Re:

Ive been thinking on this topic a little lately. A real quick synopsis of where im at with this. I think the question is the wrong question to ask. let me explain.

the better question is.... who is saved?
If you are saved you are going to heaven.
if not your going to hell.

lets be careful not to be dogmatic about this topic. i believe scripture teaches both, and its hard to reconcile the two just like sovereignty/free will. you can disagree with me on this because i know people have serious convictions with this topic.
anyway just wanted to share what i thought, and hopefully we will all be encouraged to know we are saved if we abide in Him, and hope we are rebuked if we are not abiding in Him.
Amen.


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Brian

 2008/9/18 0:47Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

I will say this, but you need to listen clearly. For you to even come to christ it has to be the father's drawing you to him. So even our decision and us coming to Christ is still God, we would not and could not come to God without his drawing. We would continue on in our sin and never care about the things of God or ever repent. When we our truly saved we have the holy spirit, the holy spirit will keep us continuing in the faith until the end. It will not be us, but the holy spirit willing it to happen because we our children of the living God. We only perservere because of God. I'm not a calvinist but that is what the Bible teaches. If you our doubting your salvation, either you our not saved or satan is messing with you. remember the Bible says that the spirit bears witness that we our saved and that we our children of God. If you our unsure, then cry and pray to god about it. Repent of all your sins, repent of what we have done to God by our sins. Trust Jesus to save you of your sins. But remember you need to fully surrender your will and life over to Christ, not half hearted or lukewarm surrender. You need to surrender everything of you to Jesus, everything.

 2008/9/18 3:10Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

Sinning willfully would be to deny Christ and continue in your sins without a sacrifice or pardon for them. Their is no sacrifice anymore after Christ.Rejecting the holy spirit.

 2008/9/18 3:20Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

Well if you have read the scriptures in corinthians where the man that continued in sin who would not repent, was given over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. His rewards would be lost but his soul would be saved. That christian couple in acts who lied to the holy spirit after being saved, were dropped dead, did they lose their salvation, no. BUt they did the sin unto death, physical death. This is not a works salvation based on what we do, it was all done on calvary already, that is why Jesus said it is finished. It is based on what Jesus did, not what we do. So all of you who believe you can lose your salvation by doing certain sins, believes that you have apart of salvation and that the good works you do as a christian and abiding in christ by good works is the basis for our salvation. Thats not what the scripture says. Its by the work of Jesus Christ. If you continue in repeated sin the holy spirit will convict, will bring you down until you repent, give you over to satan, or even a sudden death. You lose rewards but not your salvation. You our sealed unto the day of redemption. Another thing, goats, dogs, and pigs in the bible is someone who is not saved in the first place. So in peter if the dog turns back to his own vomit, then what does that mean? It was not a sheep then a dog. But a dog and always a dog until it was revealed he was a dog the whole time. It talks in the gospel of john how nobody can pluck us out of the fathers hands, not even ourselves. Jesus said he would not lose any that the father had given him.

 2008/9/18 3:30Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re: losing your salvation?

i agree creed 19, you either our a false convert or truly saved. I recommend listening to sermons by ray comfort, paul washer, paris reidhead. For any of you think you can lose your salvation.

 2008/9/18 3:34Profile
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

I too have not come to a really firm conclusion on this. Have some views yes, but not completely firm up and may change.

Always wondered 'what the destruction of the flesh is when turned over to the devil'. Any takers? Thanks


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geraldine

 2008/9/18 4:54Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
I havent come to a final belif on this, i see truths in both, but i think i see in scripture clear indications one can be saved at one point, but the eternal end of that person is lost forever.

concider these scriptures

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Jesus explains that the candlesticks are the church, not a fake church but a real church, but unless they repented they would not be that in Gods eyes any more. It was not ant "great" sin by human eyes, but for God this was enough to cancel them as a church!

unless God makes "empty" threats?



I do not believe the lampstand is symbolic of salvation. I believe it is representative of the local ‘institutional’ church at Ephesus, and it is being threatened with a disciplinary act of judgment. He does not say the flame will be extinguished, He says the stand will be removed.

A generation had passed in Ephesus since Paul was with them. The Ephesian Christians did not have their initial consuming zeal and fervent love relationship. After their original love relationship faded, the Ephesians continued to work as they had from the beginning. Their attitude changed from love to duty.

For Jesus to remove a church’s lampstand would mean the church would cease to be a church. Indeed, the Ephesian church did not continue as a body, and its members were dispersed, although I don't believe this means they were no longer Christians.

my 2 cents


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TJ

 2008/9/18 7:23Profile





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