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Abe_Juliot
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 THE NATURAL MAN - Scripture List

THE NATURAL MAN - Scripture List
Source: http://www.eschatology.com/enter.html#grace

John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.** In order to understand the grace of God, we must first understand the nature of man. John 9:39-44 Without the knowledge of our sinfulness there can be no salvation!** 1 John 1:8-10

The condition of man in his natural state Romans 3:9-19, vs. 23

I. Condition confirmed
A. Romans 3:22-23 "I've never sinned!?"

1. Proverbs 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
2. Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
3. Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
4. Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
5. Psalms 130:3 If You, LORD, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?
6 Psalms 143:2 Do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no one living is righteous.
7. "Because I've been a pretty good person!?"Proverbs 20:6,9 Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find? 9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
8. "That George, he's a good man!?" Ecclesiastes 7:20,29 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin. 29 Truly, this only I have found: That God made man upright, But they have sought out many schemes."
9. "I know where I'm going!?" Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
10. "Ok mom, I'm all clean" Jeremiah 2:22 For though you wash yourself with lye, and use much soap, Yet your iniquity is marked before Me," says the Lord GOD.
11. "I just felt like being nice!?" Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.
12. "I'm in better shape than ever!?" Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
13. "I'm doing the best I can!" Psalms 39:5 Indeed, You have made my days as handbreadths, And my age is as nothing before You; Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor. Selah
14. "I promise to be your faithful wife" Psalms 5:9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
15. "I have a really good idea!" Psalms 94:11 The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.
16. Jeremiah 2:29 Wherefore will ye plead with me? ye all have transgressed against me, saith the LORD.
17. Micah 7:2-4 The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net. 3 That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up. 4 The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.
II. Condition captured

A. "I know I sought after God, my goodness!?" Romans 3:9-11,19 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

1. "I don't really like sinning!?" Job 15:14-16 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? 15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. 16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?
2. "Proverbs 4:16-17 For they do not sleep unless they have done evil; And their sleep is taken away unless they make someone fall. 17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, And drink the wine of violence.
3. "I don't actually need to sin!?" Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?
4. Proverbs 21:10 The soul of the wicked desires evil; His neighbor finds no favor in his eyes.
5. "I know I don't love sinning!?" John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
6. "I'm not addicted" Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
7. "I can please God whenever I want!?" Romans 8:6-8 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
8. "I never thought the Bible was foolish" 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
9. "Salvation is like a gift...you have to reach out and take it" John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.
10. "You can come to Christ right now!?" John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
11. John 6:64-65 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
12. Isaiah 42:6-7 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
13. Isaiah 43:8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
14. "You can call upon His name right now!?" Isaiah 64:7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, Who stirs himself up to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us, And have consumed us because of our iniquities.
15. "I'm not perverted!" Job 9:2,3,20,30,31 How should man be just with God? 3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand. 20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse. 30 If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; 31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.
16. Jeremiah 16:12 Behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:
17. Matthew 7:16-18 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
18. Matthew 12:34-35 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
19. "Come forward and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit" John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
20. Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
21. Romans 7:5,11,13-15,18,19,23 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
22. Romans 8:5-8 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
23. Galatians 5:17,19-21 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
24. Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
III. Condition conceived

A. Romans 3:13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips";

1. "Oh, what an innocent little baby!?" Psalms 58:2-5 No, in heart you work wickedness; You weigh out the violence of your hands in the earth. 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. 4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent; They are like the deaf cobra that stops its ear, 5 Which will not heed the voice of charmers, Charming ever so skillfully.
2. "I never did things like that when I was a kid!?" Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
3. "But he hasn't reached the age of accountability!?" Isaiah 48:8 Surely you did not hear, Surely you did not know; Surely from long ago your ear was not opened. For I knew that you would deal very treacherously, And were called a transgressor from the womb.
4. "My kids never really got into trouble!?" Job 14:1-4 "Man who is born of woman Is of few days and full of trouble. 2 He comes forth like a flower and fades away; He flees like a shadow and does not continue. 3 And do You open Your eyes on such a one, And bring me to judgment with Yourself? 4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!
5. "My child is not a worm!?" Job 25:4-6 How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman? 5 If even the moon does not shine, And the stars are not pure in His sight, 6 How much less man, who is a maggot, And a son of man, who is a worm?"
6. "A zygote is a sinner?" Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. Next you'll probably tell me that every action or thought is a sin!?" Yes, you are right."
7. Mark 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
IV. Condition complete

A. Romans 3:12,14-18 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

1. Genesis 6:5,12 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. cf. Romans 5:12-14
2. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
3. Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
4. Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
5. Isaiah 1:5-6 Why should you be stricken again? You will revolt more and more. The whole head is sick, And the whole heart faints. 6 From the sole of the foot even to the head, There is no soundness in it, But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores; They have not been closed or bound up, Or soothed with ointment.
6. Ephesians 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


B. "Even our good works too?"

1. Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.
2. Proverbs 21:4,27 A haughty look, a proud heart, And the plowing of the wicked are sin. 27 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination; How much more when he brings it with wicked intent!
3. Titus 1:15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
4. Ezek 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
"So you are saying that I didn't even have the ability to choose God?"
No, Jesus said it in John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you...'
"That means all my salvation depends on His purpose, His desire, His will, and His grace?"
EXACTLY!


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/9/6 23:57Profile
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 Re: THE NATURAL MAN - Scripture List

Quote:
In order to understand the grace of God, we must first understand the nature of man. John 9:39-44 Without the knowledge of our sinfulness there can be no salvation!** 1 John 1:8-10



Just a correction here in your Scripture reference, I think you mean John 9:39-41, the chapter ends at verse 41 not 44.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with your statement that a man must first understand his nature to understand God's grace. If we just tell a man of his his sinful nature inherited from Adam and Eve he is not likely to own his guilt before God and is more likely to feel sorry for himself having inherited such a woeful position. If however that man is brought to understand his willful rebellion against a holy, righteous, and just God, if he is brought to own the depths of his wickedness and the justice of God requirements, then he will truly cry out, "amazing love, how can it be, that you my God would die for me!"

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2008/9/7 0:48Profile
Abe_Juliot
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 Re:

Thanks for the correction. I agree that the Law of God must be preached also. However, we must preach the whole counsel of God concerning man's condition. I believe that the Spirit of God awakens souls to their horrible condition through the Law.

There are many false professors who started out with preaching the Law and they now deny Sovereign grace and the Finished Work of the cross. They abhor the biblical truths of Original Sin, The Imputed Righteous Christ, and Penal Substitution. Paul spent much of his epistle to the Romans expounding on these truths for the glory of God and by the Spirit of God. The Law of God must be preached and Sovereign grace must be preached.

Blessings,
-Abraham


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Abraham Juliot

 2008/9/7 2:22Profile
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 Re: THE NATURAL MAN - Scripture List

Quote:
17. Matthew 7:16-18 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.



I tried explaining that exact thing to some christians who were enthusiasticly "prophetic" (it was a lot of spirituality without truth).

They accused me of not only being "unloving" but that I knew only a little finger's pinch of who God is. They discerned this because I was asking this question, "can a good tree bring forth bad fruit?" and during their ... "soaking" and "instruction" and "laying on of hands" ... I didn't feel the tingles on my forearms, which apparently has something to do with sensing the Presence of God. All this of course meant I clearly knew nothing of training the "spiritual senses".

It is a crazy place in the church these days.


Quote:
19. "Come forward and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit" John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.



My concern is that the greater majority of "the Church has halted somewhere between Calvary and Pentecost" (Joe Brice).

Many are there who have indeed met Jesus but they only know Him as "with us," yet all the while they claim that He is "in us." It is pure arrogance claiming to have riches in Christ when they are spiritually poor, it is deception of the worse order. The Blood of Christ is a small thing if what I see in the church today is the "fullness" of the Holy Spirit "in us."


Quote:
"Oh, what an innocent little baby!?" ... Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies



All the same, the killing of any infant is the "murder of innocence."

And I do wonder about this though, "It is obvious from Holy Scripture that though they (infants) have not personally sinned, [u]they sinned in Adam[/u], which accounts for the fact that they are subject to pain and suffering and are under the sentence of death."

"[b]They sinned in Adam[/b]," what does that even mean? Were these infants "in" Adam sinning? I get the idea of the theology; but what is with this weird phrasing?

Why not just "[b]the sin of Adam[/b]" brought the reign of death into the world.

[b]Deuteronomy 24[/b]
16. The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

[b]Romans 5[/b]
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


[Edit: 1 Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

This is the only reference I could find for "in Adam." But it says nothing about "sinning in Adam" only that "in Adam all die."

The word used for "in" is also translated:
in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 264

So it would just as much sense to say "by Adam" or "through Adam" or "with Adam all die" and "even so with Christ shall all be made alive."]


Quote:
"A zygote is a sinner?"



... OK ... :-(
Born under sin in a cursed world, sure, but I think this little guy has some time before he actually becomes guilty of sinning and legitimately becomes a "sinner."

[b]James 1[/b]
13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I don't think the zygote is ready for "sinner" status just yet.



Quote:
Next you'll probably tell me that every action or thought is a sin!?" Yes, you are right."



Unless the mind is set on the Spirit, right? So not exactly "every," alas, I am nit-picking. :-P


Quote:
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."



You can say that again.


Quote:
3. Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.



Dr. Spock meets King Solomon. :-)


Quote:
"So you are saying that I didn't even have the ability to choose God?"
No, Jesus said it in John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you...'
"That means all my salvation depends on His purpose, His desire, His will, and His grace?"
EXACTLY!



That is quite the conclusion and I do not disagree at all. How about this too:


[b]Lamentations 3[/b]
37. Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it?


[b]Deuteronomy 30[/b]
14. "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15. "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
16. in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17. "But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18. I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.
19. "[b]I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants[/b],
20. by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."


"Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it?" It is all the same, God has commanded the choice be given to man.

Therefore, is it man's choice that brings salvation? No, the Lord has commanded it. As the Scripture says, [b]Romans 9:16[/b], "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

For without the Mercy of God there would be no option to choose and without the Grace of God there would be no salvation for the one seeks eternal life in Christ.

However, to imply that the "choice" is willed by God to [b]make[/b] the sinner "willfully choose" eternal life makes this all a bit of a farce. Last I checked, as you quoted already, "for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Is it not simply the man's will (that is present) which God requires of man for Christ who is willing to do on our behalf?

Ah, but you say, "the willing would not be present if God had not worked it in you first."

[b]Philippians 2[/b]
12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I guess then because God is the One working in us we ought to just ignore this part of Scripture: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Clearly this has nothing to do with man doing anything on his part.

It irks me sometimes that I wholly agree with the Sovereign will of God, but not to the total exclusion of man as a living soul with a free-will (hence the ability to break the Law of Human Nature, which God made according to His image, after His likeness).


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Jordan

 2008/9/7 2:56Profile
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tulsa,ok.

 Re: THE NATURAL MAN - Scripture List

a lot of points that are brought out iin this post for us to ponder and to know are exactly why i chose the saying IF A SINNER CAN DO IT, IT IS NOT WHAT GOD REQUIRES...... as my signature.


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Clint Demoret

 2008/9/13 14:45Profile
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tulsa,ok.

 Re:

i love it when paul said " i become all things to all men that i might save some," our goal should be to find out who people are first by the spirit. then minister in a way that gives grace to the hearers. in this day and time i find more preachers messing up the biblical meanings of original sin and penal susbtitution. the teachers that mess this up usually do not take all scriptures combined to define the biblical terms of nature , and also the penaltiy Christ bore in His FLESHY BODY on the cross. it is easy for people think they know more about theology than they actually do. ilove the scripture that says " He makes wise the simple " and paul tells us not to think more highly of ourselves than we should.


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Clint Demoret

 2008/9/13 15:26Profile





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