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rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Brothers Paul & Mike,

I mostly agree and appreciate very much your posts but there is something still left unanswered by what Dirk W I believe is trying to say. I very much disagree with the WOF doctrines that have brought damage to many in the body of Christ. I believe the foundation of true Christianity is grounded in the altar, the blood, and the cross of Jesus Christ. I also have seen many over the years die with cancer, at the hand of doctors.

I believe that everything that we receive from God is in the atonement of Christ on the ground of the blood He shed for our redemption. Brother Paul, I believe that I know what you were trying to say when you mention about the blood being no magical formula but let us not think that we will receive anything apart from the blood of Christ. It is clear from the bible that sin is the cause of sickness being in the world. I will mention a few scriptures below showing that the atonement that Christ made for us is the only remedy for our sins and sickness.

Exodus 15:26 (KJV) And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
Isaiah 53:4-6 (KJV) 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Matthew 8:17 (KJV) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Furthermore I would like to add what Jesus said about following Him.

Matthew 16:24-25 (KJV) 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

The scripture tells us in many places that Jesus is to be our Lord in order for Him to be our savior. When we surrender our life to the lord Jesus we become His property and we have been bought with a price and we are not our own. He is our savior and our healer. We suffer with Him and we reign with him. We are not to be unwise but knowing what the will of the Lord is for us. He teaches us to follow Him through the trials of Life. We are to believe and trust Him for our salvation. He becomes to us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. Whenever a situation or need arises we are to seek Him with faith, fully trusting in Him for the outcome. I have not found a scripture in the bible that refers us to go and seek the best health insurance and the best doctors to keep us well. He says that He is the one who saves us and heals us and that He will supply all of our needs according to His riches in glory. He is a jealous God over his people and his people are jealous for His glory. There are a few people who had rather die than live in unbelief. When we are sick we should seek God and be more concerned for holiness in our life and believe that God will cleanse us from sin and produce character in us but will still heal us for his glory. If we being evil can give good things to our children, then how much more will our heavenly Father give good things to His children who ask him in faith and obedience fully trusting in Him?

2Ch 16:12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.
2Ch 16:13 And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign.

The question is have we come to the place where we had rather die in the hands of the Lord than in the hands of the doctors. Jesus is the only physician I really trust in. Don’t get alarmed I am not talking about those who are lost and don’t know Jesus. I am also not talking about those born with a problem already requiring medical attention. I am just wondering today where are the people who have been saved and filled with the Holy Ghost experiencing his power and holiness and truly believe that he is now the only healer and physician they will ever need.

We in America spend billions of dollars on the medical profession and more people are getting sick and dying in the hands of doctor’s everyday. People are so afraid if they have the slightest problem they feel they must go through all kinds of expensive tests to see what is wrong with them. Many Christians are not denying themselves anymore and trusting God, they trust the best tests and doctors and it is costing them dearly.

We either believe God is all powerful and is our healer or we don’t. Jesus said that we can’t serve God and mammon. This is a serious question to me and you might not think so but where in the New Testament does the word of God reveal to any Holy Spirit filled Christian that if He gets sick or to keep from getting sick, He is to go to the medical profession and seek out a physician. I understand doctors have a place, but when our faith in God is so vital to our walk with the Lord and the bible mentions that if we doubt in God we will not receive anything from the Lord. The only place where it specifically instructs the sick among them is to call for the elders to pray over them in the name of the Lord and it says the prayer of faith will save the sick and the lord shall raise them up, and if they have committed sins it shall be forgiven him. We know this is in James 5:13.

What I have gathered from this is that when a believer is having a problem then he is to seek the Lord in obedience and God can bring him through according to his faith and obedience. The prayer of faith back then was strong faith that the elders had achieved from Christ through the power of the Spirit that is largely missing today because of unbelief, that the sick person could be healed when they hadn’t been totally obedient in their faith walk with God because it says that if they have committed any sins they would be forgiven. The problem today is that the church needs to return to the beginning. In most churches today the prayer of faith is not in them and many Christians are not walking in obedient faith to be healed from sickness and therefore we don’t see that many healings.

How can we believe that people are actually going to hell because they have not obedient faith in the Lord Jesus for their salvation from sin, but yet we don’t believe that people are really not getting healed because of their lack of obedient faith in the Lord Jesus? The bible says that Jesus healed all that came to him. The bible says that Jesus was willing to heal all but because of unbelief He was not able to do many miracles in his own home town. The bible says that Jesus marveled at great faith and that he also marveled at the unbelief in his home town. Jesus was always reproving his disciples for their lack of faith in Him. He is still reproving us today of our lack of faith in him!

Blessings to all!


 2008/8/25 14:41Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Brother Paul, I believe that I know what you were trying to say when you mention about the blood being no magical formula but let us not think that we will receive anything apart from the blood of Christ.


This is a noble statement, but slightly flawed nonetheless if we wish to enter into the realm of biblical polemics and pedantics. The blood, for example, does not wash away the "old man" - the old man is dealt with by the cross. Biblically, the blood procures our forgiveness in the eyes of God, the blood grants us access to the throne of God, the blood cleanses our defiled consciences, and the blood silences all of Satan's accusations against God's elect. These are the primary values of the blood according to the New Testament.

I cannot find in the Word where it says explicitly that God [i]must[/i] heal our physical bodies on account of the blood atonement, or where it puts Him under covenantal obligation to do [i]any[/i] miracle on demand. But we see that God heals in answer to faith, and he just doesn't heal His elect, and that God also doesn't heal at times, and this includes His elect. Where was the blood shed for Namaan, a non Jew? Under which blood covenant or sacrificial atonement did this Assyrian general fall under? I humbly challenge you to show me one scripture where you find an apostle or anyone "pleading the blood" to get a physical healing. I can show you, however, where healing is listed under the [i]gifts of the Spirit[/i], grouped together with other gifts such as miracles and knowledge, etc.

If we plead the blood of Christ we know that God can heal, but if we don't plead the blood of Christ, God can also heal. I don't hold God exclusively to the blood to heal physical bodies, because I believe it is an improper venturing into the value of the blood; I instead pray the prayer of faith according to the will of God. If blood is mentioned, it is mentioned concerning the dealings with sin, because you are right - the Bible teaches that sin is the cause of sickness - and this is true, but as entering through the transgression of Adam in a general sense...but it is not necessarily with each and every individual case, as scripture shows us. The disciples questioned the Lord on one occasion: "Master, who sinned, - the mother or father - that this man is sick like this?" Jesus answered: "[i]No one sinned.[/i] But this man was born like this so the works of God would be manifest." In other cases, the Word teaches that Satan can afflict a person - see Luke 13:11 for an example.

Brother, if you like, we could do a detailed study on the blood, it's proper value and uses and estimation in the eyes of God accoring to each example where the blood of Christ is mentioned. We would need to make a new thread, of course. I would be willing to walk through it with you.

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/8/25 19:53Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
We either believe God is all powerful and is our healer or we don’t. Jesus said that we can’t serve God and mammon. This is a serious question to me and you might not think so but where in the New Testament does the word of God reveal to any Holy Spirit filled Christian that if He gets sick or to keep from getting sick, He is to go to the medical profession and seek out a physician.


Dear brother, do you mean to say that if a Christian goes to the hospital, he is trusting in mammon? This is precisely the error that often comes from a convoluting of God's sovereignity, the gift of healing, and the blood of Christ, and why it can be so dangerous - not only causing spiritual shipwreck in many, but in others physical tragedy as well.

Now, just to open a challenge, I submit to you that Jesus presented the medical use of oil and bandages and wine in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Paul prescribed a little wine for Timothy's stomach, and the Lord did not say that it was wrong for the woman with the issue of blood to have gone to the physicians. It would have been a great time to once and for all time clear up any future debates, as he knew it would one day pose. Instead, He focused on her [i]faith.[/i]

Just a few thoughts I'm tossing your way. I've got my glove on - you can toss the ball back when you're ready. Just be gentle. You throw back hard enough and it stings...even with the glove on.

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/8/25 20:31Profile
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
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 Re: all will be healed?

Quote:
God wants to teach them something (can someone give some scriptural examples for this?)



Ah, but see how humble I am because of my sickness and pains!

If this were true then let us pray all the more to get sick. The sicker we get the more we are learning, yes? This is the same misunderstanding as what Paul warned against, Romans 6:1, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"


Or, like Paul's "thorn in the flesh", I would have to ask, Paul said he received this messenger (angel) from satan for "lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations." What abundance of revelations have you that you should share in this trouble? In this respect I have serious doubts that Paul was physically ill by this "thorn".


There is a great deal to say concerning healing and forgiveness of sins. As far as I have seen and read in Scriptures healing of the body would be like a "shadow/type" of healing of the soul and spirit.


Matthew 6
5. "Which is easier, to say, `Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, `Get up, and walk'?
6. "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."


I believe that it is God's will to heal everyone just as it is God's will that none should perish but all have everlasting life. And though we know that Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men and that He freely forgives and pardons and redeems, not everyone shall be saved. This is because not everyone will come to Him even though He calls us all unto repentance.


Now, while I believe that God is the Healer and Physician and I personally put no trust in doctors, etc., there still is something to say for simple remedies and caring after the sick.

In terms of the Good Samaritan, I would have to question whether the Samaritan would be considered part of the Jewish convenant. Though he indeed set a fine example of Christian compassion; doing the best we can with our human abilities. All the same, we need not neglect or diminish the compassion and desire of God to heal.

In terms of a little wine for Timothy's stomach, I would have to question why Timothy was having some stomach problem. My first guess would be stress rather than some sickness of sin. For stress is caused by great and considerable care for the circumstances (which could be sinful reasons). But the circumstances and cares of Timothy would have to have done with the church and lost souls, etc., especially considering the persecution from the Jews and Gentiles. A little wine helps settle the nerves and helps relax, besides health/nutrition benefits.


Mind you these answers are very brief and by no means complete. Just a little something to help the discussion.


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Jordan

 2008/8/25 21:49Profile
Joshh
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Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


 Re: all will be healed?

I would interpret this from scripture simply by looking at Jesus. He healed ALL who came to him in faith. Most people who pray for healing have enough faith to get healed, but they have been taught error by the church, and that causes them to doubt. But Jesus shows us that it is always God's will to heal. Jesus never had to stop and pray to find out if someone who came to him for healing should be healed or not.

 2008/8/26 1:29Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Brother Paul wrote

(Quote)
I cannot find in the Word where it says explicitly that God must heal our physical bodies on account of the blood atonement, or where it puts Him under covenantal obligation to do any miracle on demand. But we see that God heals in answer to faith, and he just doesn't heal His elect, and that God also doesn't heal at times, and this includes His elect. Where was the blood shed for Namaan, a non Jew? Under which blood covenant or sacrificial atonement did this Assyrian general fall under? I humbly challenge you to show me one scripture where you find an apostle or anyone "pleading the blood" to get a physical healing. I can show you, however, where healing is listed under the gifts of the Spirit, grouped together with other gifts such as miracles and knowledge, etc.
(Quote)



The blood is for God to be able to forgive us in accepting the sacrifice of Christ for our sins in the shedding of blood on the cross. The blood deals with our sins committed but the cross is God’s way of dealing with the sin nature by crucifying Jesus as the last Adam and the representative of the human race.

The bible says in Romans chapter 5 that we are justified by faith and also by the blood. I agree with you that pleading the blood does not obligate God to heal us and neither does speaking the name of Jesus obligate God to do anything either. God shows mercy and compassion on whomever he chooses to, because without true faith that God accepts we can receive nothing. I believe God is compassionate toward our weaknesses. The apostle Paul said that when he was weak then he was strong because Christ made him strong in his weakness because he was no longer depending on himself but Christ. I don’t like what the faith movement has done in saying that all you got to do is speak it until it happens or claim it and you got it. Faith cometh by hearing and not by speaking. It is a fallacy to think that we can say the right words and it will happen.

I don’t believe a person has to say the name of Jesus all the time but He must know He is there in His Name. I don’t believe a person has to say I plead the blood because the bible does not say that he has to say this even though God can honor a true heart of faith in a person saying it. The bible says without faith it is impossible to please God. We must believe that God is and that he is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him.

I believe though we must understand the blood covenant. We must understand that if the blood is not applied then there is no forgiveness of sins. We must understand that the Holy Ghost will not dwell in an unclean vessel that has not been cleansed by the blood. The Holy Ghost will not go where the blood has not gone and will not continually dwell in a person who has not received the revelation of the cross in him being crucified with Christ.

Paul wrote
(Quote)
If we plead the blood of Christ we know that God can heal, but if we don't plead the blood of Christ, God can also heal. I don't hold God exclusively to the blood to heal physical bodies, because I believe it is an improper venturing into the value of the blood; I instead pray the prayer of faith according to the will of God. If blood is mentioned, it is mentioned concerning the dealings with sin,
(Quote)


The bible says our sins have separated us from God where He will not hear us. We have no righteousness of our own, the only righteousness we can have is through Christ and His shed blood for us. I see no where that God will answer us according to our righteousness but only on the ground of Christ blood righteousness. The bible says the life of the flesh is in the blood. The life of God comes to us by the blood of Christ. This is what I mean when I say the blood of Christ makes it possible for God to bless us. The cross would do us no good if Christ had not shed his blood on it and died. Our faith would do us no good without redemption through the forgiveness of sins because of the blood sacrifice of Christ. Christ is all and in all by his life being given to us through his sacrifice in the shedding of blood on the cross.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

The Normal Christian life by Watchman Knee has been a great blessing to me. He says it so well about the blood being primarily for God to see and what the value of the blood means to God. It is impossible for us to truly value the blood because we don’t understand it the way God does. We must know that God truly values the blood of His Son. I greatly fear God and am very careful that I don’t demean the value of the Blood of his Son but greatly appreciate its value to God for us.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

We can not make God or hold God to anything but we must value what he values. I never use the blood to try and make God do something I have only come to understand that I have no righteousness of my own but only His righteousness do I cling to. I have heard some say don’t say “I plead the Blood” but say “I claim the blood” but I am careful how I approach God and I don’t demand my rights because I don’t have any because I am a wretched sinner needing to be cleansed by His blood. I know that God does not have to hear me but I know he always heard Jesus. He said this is my beloved Son and I am well pleased with Him. He never has nor ever will say this about anyone else outside of Christ. I will let the blood of Jesus speak for me and I believe that if God will do anything for me it will be because His Son is the answer to everything.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

There are many places I do believe where the blood of Christ and the death of Christ are synonymous meaning Christ dying is meaning He shed his blood for us and Christ shedding His blood meaning in dying for us. The blood carries the life.

Brother Paul I appreciate your writings very much and I don’t know how much time I would have to give to it but I would be very interested in a study on the blood. I say this with humility but honestly also, that I would love for you to start the thread because I recognized the gift in writing that you have and I need more learning in how to express what I am trying to say in my writings. But I am at peace my brother and really do want to learn. I feel that we would be on Holy Ground because there is so much more to God’s holiness that we could enter into because of the blood of His Son.

Hebrews 10:19 (KJV) Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Blessings to all!

 2008/8/26 15:20Profile









 Re:

I dont have time to read this entire thread, so someone else may have already said this... but...

If all are to be healed, then why was Paul not healed after he asked the Lord to heal Him 3 times?

And what of death? Everyone dies of something. If not an accident, then of some sort of health failure. Do we just run out of 9 lives? No... we all die from health related problems unless we die in some accident.

Common sense tells you that God does [b]not[/b] plan to heal everyone who comes to Him in faith. To most of us He says what He said to Paul... "my grace is sufficient for you".

Krispy

 2008/8/26 15:33
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Is it?

Quote:
But Jesus shows us that it is always God's will to heal.




Quote:
I believe that it is God's will to heal everyone just as .... ([i]it is God's will that none should perish but all have everlasting life[/i].)



I know this is a commonly accepted idea, but is it true scripturally? If we just take a look at what it means to say this and measure it against the results, it raises some pretty big issues.


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Mike Balog

 2008/8/26 15:54Profile
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
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 Re:

By big issues do you mean the implications for the weakness of the church?

To put it plainly, we know that Christ's sacrifice was not a limited atonement. Just as God, who is Love, does not love partially.

In my mind, it would appear that God is withholding a great deal for the purposes of judgment and the end of the Last Days. Perhaps I may be wrong, either way, I do not believe that the church shall remain as it is. I believe there shall again be a "revival" as like the "church of Acts". The difference being, I do not conceive a final great "ingathering" but much more a great "falling away".

I would say it will be more like the great plagues of Egypt. God will once again shew great wonders but instead of repenting the people will harden their hearts against God and despise His servants.

Anyways, I am more of less speculating. I don't like to get into a lot of prophecy concerning the End Times for the simple fact that much of it is still hidden. And this bothers me because we have so many books and teachers who talk about it like they have it all figured out.

But on a more practical example. I have been to several different "prayer meetings" throughout the valley here in Las Vegas and I can say honestly that on the majority these people do not pray. Though they certainly think they do. We need to ask the hard questions. These people can pray 20 years for the same petition of healing, or whatever, and nothing come of it. So if we want to talk about the prayer of faith, then very simply, if God hears us then we have what we have asked of Him. Are we getting what we ask of Him? Why not?

I answer with Keith Green, God "wants hearts of fire, not your prayers of ice."


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Jordan

 2008/8/26 17:05Profile
Joshh
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Joined: 2008/8/26
Posts: 62


 Re:

You have to ask what was Paul's affliction. He wrote it was a messenger of Satan to buffet him. The Greek for messenger is translated "angel".

Secondly, don't forget why he got the "thorn in the flesh" : And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

So unless you have some great revelation from God himself, you probably don't fit into that category.

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I dont have time to read this entire thread, so someone else may have already said this... but...

If all are to be healed, then why was Paul not healed after he asked the Lord to heal Him 3 times?

And what of death? Everyone dies of something. If not an accident, then of some sort of health failure. Do we just run out of 9 lives? No... we all die from health related problems unless we die in some accident.

Common sense tells you that God does plan to heal everyone who comes to Him in faith. To most of us He says what He said to Paul... "my grace is sufficient for you".

Krispy

 2008/8/26 20:46Profile





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