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BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

The breath that God provided Adam was not just air to fill his lungs, but the "breath of life to make him a living soul". We don't have this breath until regeneration. Enoch's relationship was a "restored" one, not an original one, as is ours also. Which is why "born again" is a viable interpretation of "born from above". We are born from below, but have need to be born from above. Adam was originally born from above, but fell out of this state when he died by the fruit. At that point Adam would have to be born "again" from above, but he did not before the Fall, which is what the original poster asked.

Nee said we gain more than Adam lost. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see that. Adam's communion with God before the Fall we can't even imagine, and won't have realized until the last day when God brings the new heaven and the new earth and we once again have access to the tree of life (physically). I guess our experience (like Enoch's) will in a sense be greater since we live in both life and death, so there is a contrast there. But Adam lived in a world without sin or blemish! Things will end the way they started--Hallelujah!


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/8/24 0:48Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Quote:
This may be off subject, but I find it curious that God creates man in Genesis 1:27 - and then forms man in Genesis 2:7. It almost sounds as if there are two different events . . .



I think Gen 2:7 is a detailed account of how God did Gen 1:27


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/8/24 0:50Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Nee said we gain more than Adam lost


Nee said this because Christ is both the Last Adam and the Second Man.

As Christ hung on the cross as the "last Adam", He not only brought to justice all that was constituted to our race by Adam, but with His resurrection He now translates us into a brand new race of men, with Himself being the Captain, the "Second Man" and the benefits of our new inheritance are exceedingly glorious and much better than that of the "first man"; not only are we again fully reconcilled unto God, but now we also obtain a benefit which Adam did not have; namely, Christ [i]within[/i].

Remember, this was all foreordained before Adam was even created, before the foundation of the world. We certainly gained more than Adam lost, and it was by God's own design. Emmanuel, God with us, man indwelt by the Triune Diety with the righteousness of Christ as our substitution with all the power and grace and fullness of the Godhead I believe is much better than garden sojourning with isolated commandments unwritten on the heart and periodic walks with God in the cool of the day (as awesome as that must have been). But where was God during the heat of the day (metaphorically speaking, of course)? With the Second race of men by virtue of Christ's procurement, the new deal is unquestionably better! We have God [i]within us[/i] 24/7, during both the heat and cool of the day, and sweet, unbroken fellowship through His dear Son by the ever-cleansing Blood. Dear brother, and finally we have the blessed hope of glorification, of flesh-shedding, when our bodies shall at last put on incorruption and we will be with the Lord forever in eternal bliss inutterable. O Praise be to His most holy Name forever and ever.

This blessedness and promise Adam did not have. I believe we gained incalculably from his fall, and it pleased God to grant us all the blessings of the Lord Jesus Christ in heavenly places.


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/8/24 1:07Profile
HeartSong
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Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:

Quote:
This may be off subject, but I find it curious that God creates man in Genesis 1:27 - and then forms man in Genesis 2:7.



As I was praying this morning the Lord gave me further clarity on this. Just as a baby is first conceived and then formed in the mothers womb, so it is spiritually. We are first conceived seemingly from nothing, and then slowly formed into His image - all the while nurtured in His loving care.

It is when the child emerges from the womb that it takes it's first breath of air . . . and then cries.

 2008/8/24 14:27Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Brother Paul, I don't necessarily disagree with the emphasis and direction of what you and Brother Nee have said, and I certainly can't claim some great insight and knowledge over what you have said, me being so young and still very naive to the workings and revelation of God. But did not Adam have unbroken fellowship with God, with God's breath of life within him, and full access to the tree of Life (both physically and spiritually), all while being in a perfect world, without blemish?

I'm curious...how would you answer the original question?


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/8/24 14:46Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
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 Re:

Dear brother, you may consider yourself young, but your honorable decorum, humility and courteousness here is noteworthy and it puts you, in my estimation, in a class above many others who may be more learned and older in the faith than you. I just wanted to mention this before I address your last post. Thank for being an example of humility and honor and maturity here. The Lord bless you for this and grant you an ever-increasing knowledge of the deeper things touching our most precious fatih.

Let me ask you one final question:

Which is greater in your estimation - 1. [i]"And they heard the voice of the Lord God [b]walking in the garden[/b] in the cool of the day"[/i] (Gen.3:8), or 2. [i]"...God hath said, I will dwell in them and [b]walk in them[/b]; and I will be their God and they shall be my people"[/i] (II Cor. 6:16)?

According to these two verses, The first man has God walking in the garden; the second man has God walking in him.

Quote:
But did not Adam have unbroken fellowship with God, with God's breath of life within him, and full access to the tree of Life (both physically and spiritually), all while being in a perfect world, without blemish?



Did Adam, in fact, have unbroken fellowship with God, or do we just assume this because he was the first man, breathed on by God? We really don't know. Where was his unbroken fellowship with God when he found himself partaking of the tree of knowledge? God also said that it was not good for man to be [i]alone,[/i] and thus we have the genesis of Eve. Contrast this with the New Covenant where Paul alludes to the benefit of [i]not[/i] marrying if one can accept it, the idea being it can frustrate the oneness of communion God desires with the "second "race of men. We don't find this with Adam, remarkably even before his transgression.

I can provide more examples - especially pertaining to the Tree of Life which is Christ, and how we are now ingrafted [i]into it[/i] rather than it being an extraneous object in a garden.
Quote:
I'm curious...how would you answer the original question?


As far as the chances of Adam being born-again, I dare not try to make myself more wise than what the Word of God reveals. We know that when Adam fell, he hadn't yet partaken of the tree of life, because God said:

[i]"...and now lest he put forth his hand [b]and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:[/b] therefore the Lord sent him forth from the garden..."[/i] (Gen. 3:22). This frustrates the theory that Adam was originally created immortal, and immortality is synonomous with the re-birth in the covenental terms of the New Testament.

I'll leave the rest up to you, dear brother, and your meditations on the scriptures.

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/8/24 16:10Profile
whyme
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 Re: Born Again Adam

If Adam did not eat of the tree of life as appears in Genesis 3, and,

if Adam was a living soul but was of the flesh and did not have spiritual life (1Cor15: 45-50 ), and

if you have spiritual life as a believer as if you had eaten from the tree of life, then

wouldn't it be spritually consistent that once you've eaten of the tree of life and have spirtual life then you will not fall away as Adam did because you are in Christ and not in Adam? I know there are multiple verses supporting the position that eternal life is just that eternal, but many like to point to Adam's falling away as proof that it is possible and I think showing that Adam had natural life, but not spiritual life is a good counter to that supposition.

 2008/8/25 7:46Profile
Christinyou
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 Re: Born Again Adam

Quote,

"""Hopefully, no one will find this question silly or speculative only. My question is if Adam had not fallen, would he have to be born again to enter into heaven? I would ask consideration of this question in light of 1Cor15:45-50, John 3:5,6 and Genesis 3:22,23. I think the question and these verses create an interesting consideration of the superior position the redeemed have even over pre-fallen Adam and further the discussion about falling away from the eternal life we are given through the imperishable seed given those in Christ."""

God breathed into Adam the breath of life, his soul, his mental faculties, his ability to think and choose in himself.. But Adam had no spirit in him until he chose to believe Satan and then Satan became Adams father. Just like after the cross and we choose to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Jesus presents us to the Father and we become son's of God Through believing God as Adam believed Satan, it is all in the believing the Christ that is birthed in us, to make us new creature, seeking the Father through the Seed born again in the believer.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The first Adam was a, "living soul", the Last Adam, that is Jesus Christ became a, "living quickening Spirit". Adam who is earthly, as all in Adam are, The Born Again being heavenly as all in Christ are.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He (God the Father) hath chosen us in Him (Jesus Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him (God the Father) in love:

How could Adam, be born again without the sacrifice on the cross and the revelation of the Mystery to Paul being chosen from his mother's womb to have Christ reveled in him.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

The difference in religious Israel and God's birthed son's.

Galatians 1:14-16 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

So it is Christ in you the Hope of Glory that brings us back into the garden, that we might have fellowship again with the Father, because of Christ birthed in us. Now being able to partake of the Tree of Life Himself and live as son's of God forever.

Colossians 1:18-28 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Now we can seek those things that are above.

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

The life of Christ in us, which Those that are not born again do not have. That is why Israel is still waiting for their earthly Kingdom ruled by the promised Messiah whom they crucified.

If Adam would have chosen the Tree of Life over the Tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, Adam would have been given the Spirit of Christ and Satan would never have ruled in men's hearts. If I were Adam I would not be able to do any better, I would have fallen also, for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

Who is Glory and our Glory also?

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the Glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of Glory:

In the Glory of Christ: Phillip




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Phillip

 2008/8/25 15:28Profile
Logic
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 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
If Adam did not eat of the tree of life as appears in Genesis 3, and,

if Adam was a living soul but was of the flesh and did not have spiritual life (1Cor15: 45-50 ),

Spiritual life is a relationship with God.
Adam had that, and we now have it through Christ.

Adam lost it through his willful disobediance, and we looseit by our first accountable sin.

Adam gained it back when God made coats of skin to replace their figleaves. so do we when we accept His sacrifice and HE replaces our "figleaves"(works to gain God's favore)

However, Adam was just as we are today.
He would have dies eventualy, even if he had never sin [b]IF[/b] he never ate from the tree of life.
Furthermore, Adam & Eve sinned just as we do today.
[b]1John 2:16[/b] For all that is in the world,
[b]1: the lust of the flesh
[b]2:[/b] the lust of the eyes
[b]3:[/b] the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.

[b]Gen 3:6[/b] And when the woman saw that the tree was
[b]1:[/b] good for food,
and that it was
[b]2:[/b] pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be
[b]3:[/b] desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Quote:
wouldn't it be spiritually consistent that once you've eaten of the tree of life and have spiritual life then you will not fall away as Adam did because you are in Christ and not in Adam?

Eating of the tree of life is not spiritual life.
It is a [b]right[/b] of obedience, not the security of never falling away.

[b]Rev 22:14[/b] [color=990000]Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have [b]right[/b] to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/color]

However, once we eat of it again, we will never want to for we will not have this flesh to walk accordingly to.
Quote:
I know there are multiple verses supporting the position that eternal life is just that eternal, but many like to point to Adam's falling away as proof that it is possible and I think showing that Adam had natural life, but not spiritual life is a good counter to that supposition.

[b]John 17:3[/b] [color=990000]Now this is eternal life: that they shall be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.[/color]

Spiritual life and eternal life are on and the same, for how can you now Christ(have eternal life) and not have spiritual life?

 2008/8/25 15:33Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic, I agree completely that spiritual life and eternal life are the same. How do you respond to 1Cor.15:45-50 that seem to indicate that Adam did not have spiritual life yet had a relationship with God.

 2008/8/25 15:56Profile





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