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 Re:

KRISPY,

Our founding fathers were apart of secret societies and a lot of other corruption, and this can be found in many text. Religious or Christian founders? I think not!

This is where many of us are misled and have been misled for hundreds of years. God bless America, Star spangled banner and all of such hoopla is over-rated. Our founding fathers, our founding fathers, we have to truly consider the christianity they exhibited as being apart of the slave trade, the disenfranchisement of natives, and brother Krispy, many other atrocities.

Our founding fathers were made up of the society here in America called Free masonry, we need to, and I have done my homework here on the inception and beginning of what we call America, but so many of us have been indoctrinated into the system and inner-workings of government and policy here in this country that we still fall for because it is the American way

Jesus wasn't apart of this process bro, and as a matter of fact, It , isn't a part of our future, the end will come just like He said. Now, when God sends revival to this country, he will separate wheat form tares, he will draw the ungodly, he will beckon our leaders to TRUTH, not just their political stunted opinions.

Bless u Krispy and OOOOO RRRAHHH
Semper Fi

DOC

 2008/8/18 11:23









 Re:

Brother Appolus, I love your post previously,

And here is where I am coming from.

Christians in America are die hard America, where Jesus wants to uptake this argument from us so that He can be the hope for not only America, but every nation.

 2008/8/18 11:33
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

i encourage all to take time for the two sermons i gave earlier on page one. They show clearly from scripture we as followers of Jesus should not be involved in politics or this worlds affairs.

For those who interpret scripture differently, its good to get challenged sometimes on our beliefs, whatever they may be.

God bless


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/8/18 11:46Profile









 Re:

[b]ejg[/b]... have ever bothered to read the writings of the founding fathers? Or do you, like so many others, just hear bits and pieces of "information"... accept them as facts... and then regurgitate them out?

I stated in another thread (which I wont bother to reiterate here) that so many Christians love to feel hyper-spiritual by running down America. Is America perfect? Of course not. But does it make one spiritual to run it down? Nope... and I will refrain from commenting on what it does make one.

Krispy

 2008/8/18 12:51









 Re:

You make these claims with absolutely no clarification at all. Not only that, but you indiscrimently lump ALL the founding fathers in the same group. There is a word for that... it's called lying. Perhaps if you got your information from first hand accounts and sources instead of "National Treasure" movies you might be headed in the right direction.

I would recommend you read a book by Micheal Farris (a Constitutional lawyer, president of Home School Legal Defense Association, and Chancellor of Patrick Henry College) called [i]"From Tyndale to Madison: How the Death of a Martyr Led to The Bill of Rights"[/i].

You might learn something of American history.

What will you propagate on this forum next? That Bush order to Twin Towers attack?

Krispy

 2008/8/18 13:02









 Re:

By the way, I am not saying that certain founding fathers didnt belong to the Masons. A few did. And some, such as Thomas Jefferson, were deists and not Biblical Christians. Thats a matter of record. I've never seen where anyone ever tried to say differently... however, it is clear by the written record of all of the founding fathers that many of them (if not the majority) were very much Christians. If you read their own journals as well as public writings and speeches, there is no doubt as to how much a part the Lord and the Scriptures were to the founding of this country.

I know I keep going on here, but it really bugs me when this ignorance about our country is put out there like this.

Has our country made mistakes? Absolutely. Is there any other place in the world that has done any better? No there is not.

There is much our country needs to repent of, but from a human perspective we are still a good people. Where else does the entire world turn to when there is a natural disaster and people are hurting? Nowhere. They turn to [b]us[/b] because they know... enemy or not... we will send help and aid without asking for anything in return.

France could slab us in the face and insult us this week... and there could be an earthquake there this weekend... and by Monday we would be pouring aid into that country. Name another nation of people in this world that would do that. You can't.

Krispy

 2008/8/18 13:18









 Krispy

you wrote:

Quote:
I know I keep going on here, but it really bugs me when this ignorance about our country is put out there like this



Bugs me too, but not in the way you might think it bugs me.

I could laundry list a whole lot of truth about our national sins. I don;t want to though, because I feel that it will lead you to sin, meaning that you write the same sort of posts to me that you wrote to a brother, EJG.

It was insulting...cmon, you know it. References to him be learned up thru movies like national Treasure, and asking if he's going to post that the President ordered the 9/11 attacks?

C'mon. Patriotism is good, loyalty is good, but so are hard looks at our country, honest looks.

Remember that line out of "A Few Good Men"?

"You can't handle the truth".

why don;t we be more thoughtfull with one another?

 2008/8/18 13:53









 Re: Krispy

Well dont worry... let the newbies have this forum. Not much room for dinosaurs like me around here anymore.

Krispy

 2008/8/18 14:04
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi ejg…

Quote:
Our founding fathers were apart of secret societies and a lot of other corruption, and this can be found in many text. Religious or Christian founders? I think not!

Really? Which texts are you referring to? Have you read a vast amount of texts, or are you basing this upon a certain selection of texts?

We need to be careful about all of such claims. I recently purchased and read a book by a professor who tries to expose certain “myths” about our nation’s founding. However, the “myths” in his book are mostly conjecture. His “evidence” neither disproves of any of the information…but it does expose a predetermined end for which the humanist author was trying to arrive. It seems that there truly is a movement by secular humanists to rewrite our history. For instance, this author tried to claim that Patrick Henry never truly uttered his “Give me liberty or give me death” speech. Although it was acknowledged, supported by first-hand accounts and collected from first-hand notes shortly after the speech, the author claims that those who took notes might have added some of the words. His “evidence” is that we don’t have Patrick Henry’s own copy of this speech. This is “proof” that the speech was never uttered?

While there are texts that say so much, many of them come from an entirely slanted perspective. They are written by secular humanists who want to make it seem like our history was written by men who were entirely secular. Benjamin Franklin, if you would believe these new secular historians, was an avid womanizer who thought of nothing else than women. You would wonder where he had the time to work as an inventor, ambassador, historian, librarian, scientist, and statesman! If he was such an “agnostic” man – why does his own autobiography mention his faith in Christ?!? Why does he have such a deep-seeded respect for revivalists like George Whitefield (as mentioned in his own autobiography)? Instead of painting George Washington as a moral believer in Christ and a brilliant strategist, inventor, architect and surveyor, secular humanists attempt to paint him as a “lucky” bootlegger who just happened upon his reputation due to his height (he was tall).

The truth of the matter is that all men must work out their salvation with fear and trembling. There is no exception. I rejoice in the fact that this nation was created in a manner that we did not have a state-sanctioned denomination. But contrary to what Barack Obama recently claimed, America [u]was[/u] created as an emphatically Christian nation. While their denomination and specific beliefs are less established and left for opinionated historians to sort out, we can easily determine that they were men who stood for entirely Biblical themes regarding morality and reverence for the Word of God.

In one of my Critical Thinking classes as an undergraduate student, I was forced to take part in a debate regarding the question of whether our nation was founded upon Christian principles. As part of my debate, I acknowledged that there is some evidence that some of the founding fathers could have participated in questionable behavior. I knew that my opponents in the debate were going to use their “secular” claims to justify immoral behavior that is legislated by the far left (such as abortion, homosexual marriage, etc…). So I prepared a list of “evidence” that showed just what the founding fathers felt about such things. I included all of the laws that I could find pertaining to abortion (it was 100% illegal in every circumstance). Some of our founding fathers implemented stiff sentences and rigid penalties for anyone who harmed an unborn child! I also included evidence in which homosexuality was considered a “devilish disease” and “demon possession” by some of our founding fathers. Not only was “gay marriage” illegal – but a parade demanding such a “right” would have caused a riot!

An acknowledgement of our godly heritage in this nation does not mean that all of our founders were perfect men. We all know that Washington and Jefferson owned slaves (although they claimed that they “owned” them in order to protect them from other brutish slave owners). We know that some of them were involved with the Masons (hardly considered “ungodly” before the 19th Century, and the extent of 18th Century involvement is debatable – and the “diabolic” nature and practice of the supporting conspiracy theories are far less credible than some would suggest). However, can someone with all spiritual integrity point to these men and claim that they were NOT Christians? That is a bold accusation to make – and I feel that you would be hard-pressed to find credible evidence that would cement such a claim. Why? The heart of men who lived over 200 years ago cannot be adequately judged – even if you are basing your judgment upon the writings of men who wish it were so. Modern secular humanists attempt to explain away the writings of such men. The writings of the founders of this nation display either a strong faith in Christ – or an attempt to look like they had a strong faith in Christ. Either way, they were unapologetic for their positions.

In my Critical Thinking debate, I asked my opponent just what our founding fathers would think about some of the legislation attempting to be passed by the far left. What would they think about men who claimed that they had a fundamental American right to enter into holy matrimony with another man? What would Washington, Adams or Jefferson think about women who felt they had a right to murder an unborn baby? What would those founders think about attempts by the far left to remove any reference to God from public and national life? I explained in the closing of my debate that if our nation was not emphatically a Christian nation, we would not have it in their writings. Accusations can be hurled at the lifestyles by individuals who have an end that they are trying to achieve. However, the in depth writings that exposes at least an apparent faith in Christ within these men deems greater weight than mere conjecture offered by such humanists.
Quote:

I think that Barack Obama for instance was not at all pandering, he was stating how he felt and believed from the get go, and it makes much sense in light of the world we live in,
I argue with anyone that believes or thinks that we should have a president that will rule this country like a high priest or king of Israel.

You think so? He refused to even answer the pointed question about when life begins! Why? Is it possible that Obama knew that this would immediately cause him to lose support amongst evangelicals (which was his reason for attending in the first place)? In addition, Obama made use of the popular liberal catchphrase about “unwanted pregnancies” instead of using the term “abortion.” Do you think that he was using this popular liberal strategy to hide his voting past (where he voted to protect “partial birth abortion,” “secret” abortions paid for by the state for girls as young as 10 yrs old (while at school and without their parents even knowing), or the refusal to vote for extending health insurance benefits toward unborn children for prenatal surgery, or the refusal to penalize, prosecute or fine doctors who execute children who are “accidentally” born during an abortion? Obama didn’t explain his position on this issue at all – and ignored it by using “words.” If that is not “pandering,” then I don’t know what is!

I agree with our brother who mentioned that there are issues other than abortion. However, abortion is effectively allowing the murder of nearly 1 Million babies a year in this nation. This number constitutes the description of “genocide” by international organizations! In fact, even though abortion numbers have decreased over the past eight years, more people will die from abortion in this nation over the next year than from deaths accrued by this nation in EVERY WAR for which this nation has ever participated! More babies died last month from abortion than from all of the US casualties for 5+ years in Iraq. I find it hard to just ignore this issue. Yes, it is a moral issue…and a spiritual issue. But I reserve the right to speak out against it! While those on the Left fight hard to save Redwood trees, whales and penguins, I think that we have a responsibility to speak out against this slaughter!

What would our founders think of the abortion industry? Would they agree that these are not babies – but “unwanted pregnancies?” Or would they have prosecuted such individuals? You can claim that this nation was not a “Christian” nation when it was founded – but that is, in my opinion, straining a gnat to swallow a camel. When every founder mentions their faith and/or respect for the preeminence of Jesus Christ, why should we call it a secular nation? When our laws were admittedly founded upon Christian principle, why should we call this a secular nation? Yes, it may not have been a perfect nation – but it was a MORE perfect nation than what had existed before it. And it did pretty well. We still have the freedom to write these things in such a public forum for all to see.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/8/18 14:12Profile









 Chris

I did notice the way you gave the issue of slavery very short rhetorical shrift in your long post.

that did not escape my eye, curious, are you a Dominionist? I know you're a follower of Jesus, but do you ascribe to the tenets of Dominionism?

just curious.

 2008/8/18 15:01





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