Learn wrote:

"Guess I will repeat what I wrote earlier. But maybe its no point--people will just believe what they want to despite history and scripture not fully supporting their beliefs."

Did you read all of the scriptures that R Banks quoted in his post?

I am not going to try to convince you of the truth of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, because if you do not believe the words of Jesus and the clear teahings of the scriptures then you will certainly not believe me. I could give you the testimony of countless saints of God that give testimony of receiving the Baptism of the Spirit that were greatly used of God, but you would not believe them either.

Mike

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Mike

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geraldine

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Vasile Filip

Learn wrote:

"There may be some that need it but it doesn't necessarily mean its for all. If so, then guess John MacArthur, John Wesley and Corrie Ten Boom among others are limited in their witness and ministry then based on the above statements. Hmm...somehow I don't see that in their lives."

Both Corrie Ten Boom and John Wesley both believed in the infilling of the Holy Spirit. John Wesley called this infilling a "second work of grace", and he had a powerful experience with the Holy Spirit at a Methodist meeting where George Whitefield and his brother Charles were in attendance. After this deeper experience that Wesely had been seeking, there was a greater anointing on His preaching than ever before.

Corie Ten Boom said that the infilling of the Holy Spirit was absolutely essential for a Christian to face persecution. "We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it."

Many of the saints of old did not use the term "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", but they believed the Words of Jesus: "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8) They not only believed the words of Jesus but they received the wonderful gift of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Mike

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Mike

Abideinhim, you did not understand/ represent them correctly. You cannot just dig out some words or read a few articles etc from them without really reading up or studying on them to know what they mean and how they live their lives etc. I have no wish to continue this discussion with you as I see it is fruitless and I do not wish to waste my time on fruitless endeavours. Furthermore, I will soon not be around for quite some time. You want to discuss/convince, you will have to do it with yourself or some other people based on my reasons above.

And there are others besides these two that do not believe the way you do either but do mighty works for God with power and do not walk in defeat. How are you going to explain for all of these people based on your understanding. You can't. And neither can you say that you know better about these people than they themselves with regards to whether they have/have not this baptism of the holy spirit or that their understanding is wrong etc etc.

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geraldine

"Difference Between Indwelling Spirit and Outpoured Spirit" - Watchman Nee

"The Holy Spirit indwelling man is for life, whereas the Holy Spirit upon man is for power. Unless we can distinguish these two aspects of work, we will not be able to understand the difference between the work of the Holy Spirit in the Old and New Testaments. The promise in the New Testament of the indwelling Holy Spirit is made by Christ before His death. This promised aspect of the Spirit's work is related to the death of the Lord and is fulfilled at the time of His resurrection. This work of the Holy Spirit within man is for the believer's life, for his daily living that he may bear those fruits of the Spirit such as holiness, righteousness, patience, joy, and so forth.

The promise of the Holy Spirit coming upon man is made by the Father in the Old Testament time and is reaffirmed by the Lord at His ascension. This aspect of the Holy Spirit is related to the ascension of the Lord and has its fulfillment at His ascension and exaltation. The Holy Spirit falls upon believers to clothe them with the Lord's power in being witnesses and in manifesting the gifts of the Spirit, thus having power to work for God and accomplish His will.

As we read the Old and New Testaments we must distinguish clearly between the Holy Spirit's work within men and upon men. Then shall we see that there is no contradiction in the many references to the work of the Holy Spirit. Other wise, we will be puzzled by many seeming contradictions. According to God's word, each and every regenerated person must have the Holy Spirit indwelling him so that he may also receive the Holy Spirit's outpouring. The one is "must"; the other is "may". Without any doubt, as soon as a person believes in the Lord, the Holy Spirit "must" dwell in him. On the other hand, he "may" also receive outpouring of the Holy Spirit. By simple differentiating these two words you are able to see the wonder of it all.

Let me illustrate this. One day the Samaritans believed in the Lord and were baptized. The Bible does not say that they received both the indwelling and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Acts 8 records that these people had believed in the Lord and were baptized, but "as yet" the Holy Spirit "was fallen upon none of them" (vs.16). So when the apostles in Jerusalem heard about it, they sent Peter and John to lay hands on the Samaritan believers so that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Now if a person is ignorant of the distinction between the indwelling and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, he will find it difficult to explain this incident of of the Samaritans who had believed and were baptized and yet had not received the Holy Spirit. Moreover, he will not know how to interpret certain passages in "Romans 8, 1John 4 and 1 "Corinthians 6 in relation to this event. For all these passages indicate that as soon as one believes in the Lord that person has the Holy Spirit indwelling him. The fact of the matter is that the Samaritans did not lack the indwelling Spirit, they only lacked the outpoured Spirit."

From "The Communion of the Holy Spirit" by Watchman Nee.

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Mike

Hi everyone,

Just got back and did not realize I was still logged on. I read over the recent posts and would like to make a comment to Learn.

I think I see the point you are trying to make concerning the experience of others. John Wesley ministered in the light he had received from God in his day. He was persecuted by many in the church at that time because many in the church rejected the truth he discovered. He went on and preached anyway out of obedience to the truth He received from God. He preached in tents outside the established church. Many came to hear him preach and were blessed with a greater experience from God.

The truth is no one can minister except from the ability that God gives. We can not walk in a greater light than we have received. The truth of the matter only God really knows and is the final authority concerning all men and the light revealed to them. God is the one who knows when a person has not received the light or whether they are rejecting or refusing to walk in the light.

What I was saying in my post is that the scriptures are the criteria and not peoples experience. This is also what John MacArthur and probably yourself would agree also. I don't agree that because someone has experienced a gift from God makes him more superior than another, this would be contrary to the spirit of Christ. But now let us also acknowledge that if we have not received the Holy Spirit like they received it in the bible then lets not claim that what we have is the same experience. John MacArthur has been used by God to a certain extent and has blessed a lot of people but let me say this respectfully, I don't know the man and he has done nothing for me that I am aware of.

The writings of the apostles in the bible has done more to show me Jesus and the power of God. I have read some of the writings of John MacArthur and have decided to look past him to the other side of Jordan. The problem with so many is they can't get past their favorite preachers because they idolize all that they have accomplished. We have too many satisfied preachers that are so hung up and have got many of you so hung up on all their(isms)doctrines. Look, are they doing the works of the apostles and why are their writings more important than the scriptures. When did they become the criteria. I thank God for every preacher preaching the truth and every christian living the truth they have received but don't stop at the schools of the preachers but go on for a double portion. Let's go on for a deeper experience with God. Look at the experience of that early church in the bible and pray to the living God and say to Him that you want it like they had it, what ever the cost. He is worthy!

Rbanks, there's no way I can fully explain everything I mean nor am I'm interested to do so. Plus, I'm running short of time now. One of the reasons why I pretty much all the time do not explain everything or get into further discussions on many occasions is because it also depends on the other person's ability to fully grasp certain things and his experience, time justification--is it worth the time spent etc etc etc. To discuss further would just not be fruitful and its not important for me to get the last word in. That's why like for this topic and some others, I usually say what I want to say and at times get dragged on to discuss a bit further with some others but will usually put a halt by withdrawing myself from the discussion. And I should really be withdrawing--I've been saying this for the last couple of posts already.


I do agree with scriptures being the criteria and am not one to get caught up with idolizing certain preachers. In fact, I mentioned this in my earlier post. Also, 1 of my favourite preacher is Paul Washer but even before I found that I disagree with him on some things and at my height on when I really liked his preaching, I was already saying that its likely he will not get everything right. Also, I don't believe that John MacArthur has everything right either. Neither do myself.

There are times the bible does not fully explain certain things/give a definite view or will explain it in such a way that one will need to also use common sense to understand. Experience of real Christians that are outside the bible will also be important especially then. However, there are some that will then misinterpret/misunderstand what the bible is saying or read more into the bible than what it actually states.

Examples:
1a) 1 Timothy 2:9
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

1b) But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Now, some people may then say that women should not braid their hair or never ever buy an expensive clothes. Some people may then say that if a woman does not give birth, then she may not be saved

Huh! What 1a) basically is trying to say is what is the right attitude of a woman. Yes, it literally says the woman should not braid the hair or buy expensive clothes--but is that what the bible is really trying to imply. If one buy an expensive clothes only 1 -2 times throughout her whole life and braid their hair (which is normal for Indians), is that contradictory to the bible. No


Also, history will tell of women such as Amy Carmichael and Corrie Ten Boom that never married and gave birth and yet they were used by God. Now does that mean, they may not not be saved--after all 1b) says that a woman will be saved through childbearing. No--common sense and history will tell us that they are saved even though literally it seems contradictory to what the verse in the bible says


2) Tongues
Some people believe that one needs tongues to be saved or/and when one receive the holy spirit.

Now--there are verses in the bible that says people receive tongues when they are saved, but there are also verses that are silent (do not say they receive tongues). Furthermore, history teaches us that real Christians like William Booth, George Whitefield etc did not receive tongues.

Yet, despite the fact that the bible does not fully support their viewpoints that tongues is needed to be saved (see my earlier paragraph) and history after the bible showing that (eg: William Booth etc), they will point to verses in the bible such as when the apostles gathered in the upper room, Cornelius etc to say that tongues are needed


3) Whether one can lose/reject their salvation

There are verses that support both camps (ie can lose/reject their salvation and OSAS--once saved always saved).

Now, some people might point to Saul where the holy spirit left him to say that one can lose one's salvation--after all, if one does not have the holy spirit, one does not belong to Christ (as the bible tells us).

But--one thing we must realize. There is a difference between the Old Testament and New Testament. In Saul's time, Jesus has not died and risen again. So while Saul losing his holy spirit can be a point in favour of those believing that one can lose one's salvation, we must also not forget that the new covenant has not been put into place yet at Saul's time--and this rightfully should be in a person's mind when he uses Saul as an example of one that can lose one's salvation.


4) Whether one know the exact moment when one was saved

Some people for example John Piper will say that one certainly know when one is saved as it is a distinct occurence. Now, if we were to read the bible, we will hear words such as then 'they believed', 'the holy spirit came down' etc etc. Reading the bible literally like this (without doing a bit more thinking), one may just agree that one will know when one is saved.

But, but there are real Christians after the bible that will tell you they don't know exactly when they were saved. Now, I am of the personal view that one may not know when one is saved after reading their stories. I personally know when I was saved but I cannot and should not rely on my experience alone or to read more into what the bible says that one will certainly know the exact moment when one was saved.

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geraldine

Learn, it is unfortunate that many have been led into legalism concerning the scriptures and have damaged many in the body of Christ. There are things I don't fully understand but by the grace of God I trust Him to lead me in the way of His truth. We must not stubbornly side with our own belief just because we don't want to get out of our comfort zone. Our experience must always be tested by the experience found in the word of God.

We must take into consideration the time the scriptures were written and who they were writing to at the time. The word of God should never be taken out of context. The Holy Spirit inspired the written scriptures. We are to have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

I would like to offer some insight on a few scriptures you mention. The one about being saved in child bearing seems to imply that because some of the women back then died in child bearing that the christian women who continued in a holy relationship with God were given a promise that they would be saved from death while bearing children.

The scripture on outward appearance was so that the women of God would dress modestly as women who profess godliness. They were not to strive for outward worldly beauty but inward godly beauty. I believe that the apostles were mainly concerned with extravagance in dress and not a litmus test about everything you could and could not do but be devoted in your heart to God and to their husbands.

The scripture on tongues is that it is a gift to the saved after the baptism in the Holy Spirit. They who say that we must speak in tongues to be saved are in grave error and heresy.

We are saved by the blood being applied to wash us from sin and by the Holy Spirit regenerating our dead spirit to be alive unto God. Everyone born of God must have the Spirit of Christ.

In order for one to be baptized(immersed)in the Holy Spirit he must have been born of the Holy Spirit first. I believe there are people who have been immersed in the Holy Spirit to some degree that have received power for ministry that have not spoken in tongues or are not aware of it.

I heard the story of Moody, Wesley, Nee, and others tell of a definite experience of power that change their ministry but they never stated they spoke in tongues. I also read where Torrey said we need the baptism of the Holy Spirit for power in service. I never read where he spoke in tongues either. I have been blessed by these ministries. They have clearly stated about the need of the baptism. I know of other preachers like B.H. Clendennon, myself, and others who have had a definite experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues just like they did in the book of Acts.

I am not to discredit the experience that God does in any one's life or ministry. If a person has spoken in tongues or has not spoken in tongues is between them and God. I believe the bible must be preached in the entirety of the new covenant that God has richly blessed us with. I love the word of God and the truth being preached. I strive to live and preached the whole counsel of the word of God. I believe in returning to the original pattern, the foundation laid by the apostles by the grace of God. Thanks for reading my post.

[b]Parenthetical Christians[/b]

"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper country came to Ephesus, and found certain disciples: and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed?" (Acts 19:1-2).

http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/002034.html

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Vasile Filip