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 Re:

Quote:
However I do not feel led to answer anymore of what you've said, you have already called God a liar, and made him out to be even with Satan by saying he gets glory, from my sufferings.


Mitch I think you have called all of us liars and that our God we believe in is a lie. If you are going to be closed minded to peoples opinions then why even discuss them, I would second that warning also for you not accuse people directly without warrant. I would really encourage you to read peoples posts slowly and even prayerfully meditating on their revelation of God and the scriptures shown. And yes God does cause his children to suffer its one of the prevalant wonderful themes in Scripture, I would run out of ink so to speak if I quoted them all here is one for your thoughts:

[b]Hebrews 12:5-11[/b] - And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

and here is one I can't but help quote are you a man of faith? verily then your life will be characterized as thus:

[b]Hebrews 11:32-40[/b] - And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/7/8 19:43Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

"When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

Act 7:54-60


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Mike Balog

 2004/7/8 19:58Profile
KeithLaMothe
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Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Saying that God is best glorified when we are suffering does seem to me an overstatement, and if taken to its logical conclusion to be speaking of quite a different God than we usually think of. I would tend to agree with John Piper in saying that God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him.

However,

2 Corinthians 12 (Amplified)
8 Three times I called upon the Lord and besought [Him] about this and begged that it might depart from me;
9 But He said to me, My grace (My favor and loving-kindness and mercy) is enough for you [sufficient against any danger and enables you to bear the trouble manfully]; for [b]My strength and power are made perfect (fulfilled and completed) and show themselves most effective in [your] weakness.[/b] Therefore, I will all the more gladly glory in my weaknesses and infirmities, that the strength and power of Christ (the Messiah) may rest (yes, may pitch a tent over and dwell) upon me!
10 So for the sake of Christ, I am well pleased and take pleasure in infirmities, insults, hardships, persecutions, perplexities and distresses; for when I am weak [in human strength], then am I [truly] strong (able, powerful in divine strength).

I'd say that, all other things being equal, God obviously prefers we not suffer, that is essentially a truism (for me, at least). However, things are very rarely all equal down here, there's too much necessity for discipline and reminders of our dependence on God, etc...

You do have a good point about the term "messenger from Satan," though. I think it's quite reasonable to read that passage (in isolation, at least) as speaking of some kind of demonic oppression or harassment of Paul.

And do strive to be kind, Mitch, unless God is telling you otherwise (there is a time for being unkind). Keep in mind the extensive limitations on this kind of communication: can't hear the other person's voice (tone, attitude, etc), can't as readily ask for explanations of terms, or logic/reasoning, etc... Make [b]sure[/b] someone is really saying something before rebuking them that strongly for it.

Remember, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, [b]peace[/b], [b][u]patience[/u][/b], [b]kindness[/b], faithfulness [b]gentleness[/b], and [b][u]self-control[/u][/b]. There are times where some of those attributes will not necessarily be present (i.e. John the Baptist, Jesus against the hypocritical Pharisees, Stephen, etc) but they are definately the exception rather than the rule.

 2004/7/8 23:38Profile
lwpray
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Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Fellowship of His Sufferings



In relation of a somewhat careless remark made by dear Mitch regarding the worthlessness of suffering I cannot help but begin quoting Mr. Sparks:


“The Fellowship of His Sufferings”
For Paul it was not something to be shunned: “that I may know him and the fellowship of his sufferings” (Phil. 3:10); there was a disposition to share the sufferings of the Lamb. That issues in a specific kind of people, a particular company; and if we look at it in that way surely our suspicions and our fears are dismissed. Identify these people and the other ground gives way.

What all this means becomes clear as we look at it in its relation to all that is said about the Lamb. That is, you have got to comprehend the whole Word of God in connection with the Lamb in order to understand who and what these people are, for undoubtedly they are the people who have embraced, entered into, and become the embodiment of all that that phrase means — the Lamb, His life, His character, His work.

What is here is this: firstly, a company marked out and distinguished by a peculiar fellowship with Christ as the Lamb. Underline the word Lamb, the name Lamb, with all that that means, and then see here a people who are in a peculiar relationship with Christ as the Lamb, and with what He means as being the Lamb. There is little doubt that there is a special honour given to this company. They are mentioned here with peculiar honour; their position is one of peculiar honour. The very tone in which they are mentioned is that of a people of very sacred and precious meaning to the Lord.

A Song Learned Through Suffering
They possess an exclusive secret. They sing a song, and no one could learn that song save the hundred and forty-four thousand. No one else had the faculty. How do they possess this exclusive secret? Oh, the answer goes to the heart of so much in our experience. You know that it is a true principle that you learn secrets through suffering that you learn in no other way.
It is in suffering that we learn those things that no one else knows. We cannot explain them, we cannot teach them, or make others understand. We can only say, “When you have been through what I have been through you will understand, you will know; until you have, it is all closed to you”. These people have been a way in which capacity for something has been created.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/7/9 1:21Profile
lwpray
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Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re: Only nice things



Isaiah 53 holds and contains a great mystery.
He carried our griefs, our pain, our burdens. Through the Cross – and nowhere else, by the way – the enemy is reduced to nought.

And then there is a cross for us to carry, every day. Much pain, much sorrow, much prayer, much priestly ministry.

A father’s heart is – a real father accepting full responsibility in childrearing – is overloaded with pain, even unto physical expressions. Are we available for responsibility within the Kingdom, sharing in His sufferings.

The modern stance – not accepting the cross, carrying it daily.
The modern stance – not accepting childrearing unto adulthood.
The modern stance – not accepting a part in the Father’s heart and burden, a formation made by the Holy Spirit.

No burden allowed – rejecting priestly work
Shuns pain – shuns the greater part of reality.
Wants only nice things – a child’s attitude.

The mystery mastered - and lost.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/7/9 1:40Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Daniel3:15-18

15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
17 If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
18 But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.


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Mark Nash

 2004/7/9 5:20Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Jeremy
I think you misunderstood Philo. In his first sentence to you he said that he believed in healing and that it happens today. He also did not say that healing is not in the atonement, he just said that it's not in there in the same way that forgiveness is in there.

We do have some points that we have in common. (1) We believe in healing. (2) We believe that healing is in the atonement. From there on we part in the application.

Healing is not in the atonement the same way that forgiveness is in the atonement, but it is in the atonement the same way that eternal life is in the atonement.

bornagain is not the first to misunderstand Philo. ;-) There is a comment that Luther made of Jeromes commentary that has always stuck in my mind; Jerome laboureth abundantly, yet leaveth it unexplained I have listened to a few 'Jeromes' in my time and no doubt been a Jerome myself from time to time.

I regard the Atonement as the basis for all of God's dealings with our race. Even before the time/space event of Calvary it was still the basis for all His dealings with our race. In this sense everything is 'in the atonement'. Everything we receive from Him is because of the Atonement. All answered prayer is because of the Atonement. All prayer for healing is answered because of the Atonement, but I don't put prayer for healing on a different footing to prayer for a good harvest or a safe journey.

The Atonement has to do with sin. It is sin that was atoned. Its consequence was that God could continue His dwelling in their midst. Blood shed in Atonement was 'for God'. It continues the line of truth in the phrase 'when I see the blood I will pass over you'. The blood was for God. The atonement was to satisfy God's divine justice. There are wonderful blessings which result from the Atonement, and healing can be one of them, but they are not 'in' the Atonement in the sense that the scope of the Atonement was sin and sickness. This is 'scope-creep' as the project managers would call it. The Atonement was to cover sin and the sinner so that he could approach God.

I will cease 'labouring'... ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/7/9 5:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Mitch I think you have called all of us liars and that our God we believe in is a lie. If you are going to be closed minded to peoples opinions then why even discuss them



You bring up a good point, one in which the Lord has dealt with me over. Yesteday I found the place on the web where that Brother Hagin video was taken from. And there was numerous other videos that this website had which was completely and utterly doctored to make them look how the webmaster wanted. I see now, just how much hatred there is for men of Faith in this world today. I had never come face to face with so much of this hatred before in my life, untill I began on here. I understand that people want to believe God wants us to be lowly, sick, poor. Even though there is no scripture to back this up if its really studied out. I also understand, as Paul wrote to the Church, if a man wants to be weak, allow him to be weak. So I'll go away now, I will keep you in my prayers. There is alot in which I think you should all come to tearms with. ESPECIALLY on how much you attack people like Brother Hagin and myself. We are speaking the Word of God, and instead of bringing the Word back to us, you make fake videos of us. That in itself, is enough to show any man with common sense, who is more Christ like. I will keep you in my prayers, but I shall not visit here anymore. I will pray the Lord of Harvest will remove junk like this from the Internet, I will never allow my child to grow up and see so much doubt and unbelief amongst Christians.


Mitch Miller

 2004/7/9 6:46
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

'So I'll go away now, I will keep you in my prayers. There is alot in which I think you should all come to terms with. ESPECIALLY on how much you attack people like Brother Hagin and myself.'

I think that maybe we could have another schism about that one. :roll: I for one appreciate your comments, but you have got realise that saying the stuff you do in the way you do.

Quote:
eg:'I will keep you in my prayers, but I shall not visit here anymore. I will pray the Lord of Harvest will remove junk like this from the Internet, I will never allow my child to grow up and see so much doubt and unbelief amongst Christians.'

Will more than likely cause someone amongst 6 billion odd people to get :-x I have not sensed that there is 'so much doubt and unbelief' amongst the people who visit these forums. I have certainly noticed differences of interpretation, but not of a hunger to live the truth.

For you to leave and never come back, which would make writing this post totally useless, would certainly please allot of people, but not myself. Just think of the privilige you have of giving a reason for the hope 'you' have. If 'your' truth cannot stand up under the scrutiny of a public forum without making you spitting mad then take it away and seek the Lord, we don't have to defend him. Mitch, if your position is the truth then no person should be able to arouse your emotions to give some of the responses that you have. Truth is truth even if you/I have it. That day will bring it to light.

The hunger on this sight is for truth, I believe. I believe that 'By his stripes I was healed' in every area, that the Holy Spirit can manifest himself how he chooses on a person. But there is and I will say it again a middle road application where neither extreme becomes the focus, but just the boundary lines into which God wants to pour himself.

That within the Church he is able to be God in it, and not be told how he should act.

As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Pro 27:17

Imagine how sharp you will be when you are through with us ;-)


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/7/9 7:31Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re: dont go away, think

This site would be very very boring and staid if we all agreed on everything...
personally, i have had views enhanced, confirmed and changed by the good folk on this site,A brother on this site has said on tape

Quote:
"If you hav'nt changed your mind recently....how do you know you still have one"


Humourous but true if you think about it.My experience of this "marketplace" has been a great dwelling in unity coupled with "see how they love one another" :-)


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derek Eyre

 2004/7/9 9:04Profile





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