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rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Woman terrified that she is not one of God’s elect.

Can I Be Sure I am God's Elect
Don Fortner
FreeGraceRadio.com

This pastor said that a woman wrote Him saying that she was terrified that she might not be one of God’s Elect. She said that she knew that only the elect would be saved. She wanted to know how she could be sure. She said she has not been able to hardly sleep for six months. She said she has been tormented with blasphemous thoughts and had suffered continuously and wanted to know how she could be sure. She said she was about to go in the depression. He described it much worse than what I have written. It disturbed me just listening to Him and would make me want to repent of saying anything not found in the bible that would contribute to such mess as this.

The way this pastor describe her letter was horrible and He also said in his 40 years of preaching He has had several letters from people similar to this woman wanting to know how they could know they were one of God’s elect.

I must ask what kind of fruit is this. I listen to some of this pastor’s sermon and it seems like to me that some people worship their doctrine of election. It seems to be in all their preaching and all their conversation. This has answered what I had somewhat believed that the fruit of man’s doctrine of election does not help anybody to be saved. Something that causes people to be tormented because they don’t know if God loves them because they might not be God’s elect does not come from God but from people who can’t seem to break free from an idol, seemingly a doctrine of the devil and the devil loves to torment people.

Moses and Paul seem to have the heart to say to God that they didn’t want to be saved without others being saved. And here we have people who claim to be one of the elect believing that some can’t be saved, well brethren would you be tormented day and night if you believed you were going to hell for eternity because you were not one of the elect. Some accuse others of wanting to get credit, because they believe that anybody can believe, when that is not true. But my friend how can you be so proud as to believe you are one of God’s elect over those who are not.

Nobody can say it any better than Jesus when He said For God so loved the world that whosoever that believeth should not perish but have everlasting life.

Lord, thank you for the truths men have discovered but Lord please saved us from men’s doctrines that hinder your work of redemption. Lord since you suffered so much for us to be saved let us not worship a teaching that confuses people and causes some people to believe that you didn’t die for them when you said you did.

Blessings to all!

 2008/8/9 0:05Profile
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re: Woman terrified that she is not one of God’s elect.

This is just another example of the bitter fruits of extreme calvinism. Sure there are elements of truth to it - but in it's extreme form it is downright lethal and completely out of line with the character and nature of the God of the Bible. I have a family member who has actual medical conditions for which she is on medication, due to the extreme stress and anxiety she experienced due to this same fear. I don't believe your typical, run of the mill, calvinist has had this same experience, but like I said earlier, in it's EXTREME form it is downright lethal.

just my thoughts...

jeff


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Jeff

 2008/8/9 0:30Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Woman terrified that she is not one of God’s elect.

Truly saddening

Quote:
I listen to some of this pastor’s sermon and it seems like to me that some people worship their doctrine of election.



There is a cruelty that is almost beyond speaking that would put this past any saint as something to be cast aside.

Quote:
I must ask what kind of fruit is this.


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Mike Balog

 2008/8/9 0:48Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: Woman terrified that she is not one of God’s elect.

Quote:
...it seems like to me that some people worship their doctrine...



This is truly sad…on many levels. Sad, but nothing new.

People have been perverting and/or over esteeming doctrines from the beginning. Whether it is unconditional election or free will, they have both been abused to tragic ends. I’m sure we could all fill SI with these types of horror stories. It is truly sad and something we should all be concerned about.

I believe Pastor Mark Kielar does a good job of answering the question: "How Do I Know If I'm One of God's Elect?" Click [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RClNArrlt7A]here[/url]

A note to brother rbanks. Be careful not to lump all those that embrace the doctrines of grace into the same pile with those that adhere to the sick, twisted and perverted doctrines held by hyper-Calvinists. There is a big difference.

Thanks for posting this brother.

Grace and peace


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TJ

 2008/8/9 1:37Profile
IsaiahSix3
Member



Joined: 2008/1/23
Posts: 33


 Re: Woman terrified that she is not one of God’s elect.

I was shocked to read someone else say this because I have thought the very same thing about certain calvinist preachers in recent years. I belive I am a moderate calvinist myself, but I have noticed personally that some of the strong calvinist preachers seem to hardly think of anything else. It's very annoying to have to hear it CONSTANTLY, even if not directly, woven indirectly into every point that is made. The pastor of a church that we used to go to did this and we finally got to the point that we were uncomfortable with it. After bringing it to his attention and seeing it made him defensive (feeling the need to defend CALVINISM and talk about it to us even MORE) we finally decided it was time for us to find a new church.

I just think it's a shame because I do see some truth and wisdom in it (although I do NOT believe all 5 points!) It seems like satan can take ANYTHING and twist it or cause people to focus on it in a way where it is out of balance so that it becomes a stumblingblock and a hindrance to an otherwise good, sincere ministry. Satan is crafty to use these things we cling to and stand on and believe in to puff us up with pride and get our focus off of the important things!! I guess that's why we're told to be on the lookout for him... he's sneaky.

 2008/8/9 2:29Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Probably we have similar stories on the "other side" that are terrified they cant please God with their "works".

And as TJ said there is a difference between hyper and regular, i think also there are 5, 7 and even 11 pointers.

as for me i have figured it out :-P i have solved the mystery that throughout the ages puzzled the church and has divided it. And both calvin and arminus was wrong.


I just waiting for the rest of you all to come along, ;-)

I think Tozer got it, and he does a very fine job here explaining it.


[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2308]The Sovereignty of God by A.W Tozer[/url]

Personally i find it for myself a somewhat mysterious that so many "exalt" some of the reformers as great heroes, undoubtedly they did much that benefit us, and God used their lifes for good.

But when one digs deeper and read about their lifes and some of the things that took place and what these men openly did and taught. I can not for my self embrace ALL they say or believe, when we study the period of time, the letters by the reformers and other works we will discover a people that is not much spoken of, the Anabaptists. I have come to believe Gods people in the reformation was not so much Luther, Calvin or Zwingli, but Rather the men woman and children they persecuted and killed. The Anabaptists.

So before we get all caught up in the discussion, we should at least consider ALL things. I find it hard to so "embrace" the reformers, not that I my self is perfect, but have we really considered whos teachings we are following?

we need to take a step back sometimes and refocus our point of following to HIM, the LORD JESUS.

ALL men will lead us astray somewhere in our walk, we can read volume upon volume from theologians, book after book, yet we dont grow in holiness or life or love, so it was for me. Grow in head knowledge, grow in knowledge. But not in christlikness, if following anyone, surely it is wise following those who are most like unto our Lord Jesus, and i have found in the reformers days, it was not the reformers, rather the Anabaptists.

But sadly not many know or take an interest in those who counted it a blessing to gladly and with joy die horrible deaths for the master.

The testimony of Jesus Christ in those days, where not from Luther, Calvin or anyone else, they did much good, said great things, i have benefited much by their writings, but after stumbling upon the Anabaptist and reading about them, their doctrines may not always "fit" modern theology, or be as good as Calvins, but their life and testimony far surpasses them all.

life...

So before anyone study to much of this controversy, i exhort all to read [url=http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/]Martyrs Mirror[/url]

buy it from [url=http://www.amazon.com/Martyrs-Mirror-Centuries-Christian-D/dp/083611390X]Amazon[/url]

God bless you all


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/8/9 2:47Profile
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

Its not just the pastors that are at fault but also those who continue to justify the doctrines in forums and articles without thinking who might come along to read it and be affected.


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geraldine

 2008/8/9 3:54Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

We do not yet know our election with certitude, as if we held a certificate.

By faith and with good reason we believe we are elect because we see the fruits of our union with Christ. We sense our trust in His righteousness. We experience the Spirit progressively leading us from sin into greater degrees of sanctification. These gifts belong to believers, and believers are those God elected. At times our faith soars and can be called "the full assurance of faith", like the sweet aroma of a flower that opens in the morning. In these times we have no reason to doubt our election, for only the elect love Christ so.

If we continue in faith to the end, we shall at last discover in God's presence, by His grace, that we were elect from before the foundation of the world. Then it will be a certitude.

Praise God, and may He give us grace to persevere.

 2008/8/9 4:39Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

we can be sure, and we can know.

1 John 5:13 ¶ These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; [b]that ye may know[/b] that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

to quote Paul Washer:

You dont want to swing out into eternity on a maybe... you have to know that you know that you know!


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CHRISTIAN

 2008/8/9 4:56Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

I agree with you, hmmhmm. I simply emphasize that the way we know is by faith, because there a certainly times when we feel like we don't know but that doesn't change that we are.

 2008/8/9 5:16Profile





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