SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Gods mysterious Will, how can we know what it is?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Gods mysterious Will, how can we know what it is?

Psalm 38:18- For I will declare my iniquity, I will be in anguish over my sin.

There has been a thousand books written on the mysterious will of God. Theologians have debated for centuries about Gods sovereign will, His permissible will. His sovereign will meaning that God rules supreme and that He controls everything , His permissible will means that although things happen on this planet that goes against what God would want, He allows it, He permits it, because of "Free Will." The point being, God could create a perfect planet without any sin , where all things are according to His nature.

Obviously this is an enormous subject and after a lifetime of study, one would die in relative ignorance to the true meaning of "Gods will." This in no way means that we should not study. C.S.Lewis talked about two different men. One spent his whole life studying God's word and His ways and ended his days by declaring that he knew less about God at the end of his life that he did at the beginning of his studies and walk. The other man, a young man, declared that God and His ways were unknowable therefore he would not waste his time studying it. Now their conclusions were both the same, God and his ways were "above ours," but one was a lazy man and the other a devoted servant.


Yet, it is unmistakable, the way that you perceive the "will of God ," for your life will shape who you are and how you react to any given situation. This is particularly true when it comes to trials and tribulations, chastening's and corrections from the Lord. Again, there are thousands of books on the nature of trials and tribulations, afflictions and infirmities and why the man or woman of God suffers them. Why does bad things happen to good people? This is a question thousands of years old. The oldest book of the Bible, Job, is written to draw back the curtain and give us some insight into commonly held belief's.

In Jobs day, it was assumed that if a man was poor and suffered afflictions of any kind, then it was undoubtedly hidden sin and Gods rebuke that was the cause. To put it simply, good men prospered, and evil men suffered. Now we know, by the book itself , that this was not the case and that it was vastly more complicated than this simple belief. Indeed the Book of Psalms talks many times and asks the question often "why do evil men prosper," and the poor are afflicted and seemingly forgotton.

So, it is very sad to see movements like the "Word of Faith," and "prosperity Gospel," flourish in this day. Millions all over the world follow the teachings of the disciples of "Job's friends." It seems then that little progress has been made in humanity when the same philosophy that was exposed in the Book of Jon, is still followed today by millions.

So, when a trial comes, when tragedy strikes, when tribulation comes knocking at the door of a genuine Christian, how should one react? What do you believe about the "Will of God?" Is it your fault? Is it Satan's fault? Is it God rebuking you? Are you being assaulted by demons? Does danger lurk everywhere? Can we be destroyed at any second by our enemy? How does our free will stack up against the will of God for our lives? If we mess up, have we derailed our walk with Him? Does His plan for our life lie in ruins now that we have messed up. If we contract cancer and are going to die, does that mean we have hidden sin that has brought us down? If we lose our job does that mean we have lost favor with God?

If we lose a loved one, did we not pray hard enough? If we had prayed more could that loved one have been saved? These are only some of the dizzying array of questions that assault our minds. There is a phrase for this "paralysis of analysis." This is why it is so important to have a balanced view of "God's will."

Tozer gave this analogy of Gods will, it is pretty good. A large passenger Liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool , England. It will leave at a certain time, and will arrive at Liverpool at a certain time. While the schedule is definite, and the journey set, the people are free to move around the ship. God does have a plan for your life, the life of a genuine Christian. While Tozer's analogy was meant to demonstrate the history of man, it can also be personalized. Your life, as a genuine Christian, can be represented by the Liner.

Think about this. If the will of God was determined by the actions of man, then would God be sovereign? Can a man derail Gods plan? Is God constantly having to change His plans to accommodate feckless man? And again, can Satan derail the plan of God? Does the enemy of our soul have the ability to counter the plans of God through you? Example.....God has a plan for your life, but along comes cancer and cuts your life short, has Gods will been thwarted either by the "hidden sin,' that you must have had or by Satan who afflicted you with the cancer or by your lack of faith? If these causes are the only options, then we have just rendered God powerless to any number of circumstances or causes.

Now we know that God will never tempt His people. This is true and Scripture backs this up. What is temptation? Is not temptation the enticement of our soul to sin? God would never do that, Satan would. What is a test? Is a test the same as a temptation? Does God test His people? Does God chasten His people? Does God try His people?

How can we tell the difference between a test and a temptation? Is not one meant for destruction and the other for building us up? Yes. Can we always tell the difference between a temptation and a test? No. A Biblical example would be Abraham and Isaac. Now we know that God hated human sacrifice, He abhorred it. Yet, He compels Abraham to take his son up the mountain and sacrifice him. Is Abraham being tempted or tested?

Gen 22:1 And it happened after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, Abraham! And he said, Behold me. And He said, Take now your son, your only one, Isaac, whom you love. And go into the land of Moriah, and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will name to you.

Did Abraham pass the test? ....

Gen 22:12 And He said, Do not lay your hand on the lad, nor do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me.

He certainly did. He was not being tempted to go against Gods will, he was being tested. I can imagine atheists accusing me of cutting that finely, yet this is what the Word of God does, even to the marrow. This is such an important point because often time, in fact most of the times, we will never know if what afflicts us is from the enemy or from God. Abraham , obviously, was obeying the word of God and that was his guide, even when it made no sense whatsoever. How could killing his son be of God? Was not all the promises made to Abraham come through this child? It would make no sense. And often times when trials and afflictions, tragedy comes knocking at out door, it makes no sense. Yet, just as Abraham was guided by a word from God, then we too will be guided by Gods word.

The truth is, in any trial or circumstance of our lives, even a serious diagnosis from the doctor, we must never deviate from trusting in God. Abraham knew that even if he had to carry out the sacrifice of his son, that God could raise him up. Job knew that even if God slayed him, he would still trust Him. So, trust must be our first line of defense, our first reaction. Secondly , we must search our hearts like David did in Psalm 38:18. Who amongst us would have no sin to declare or anguish over? Thirdly, we must strive to know how we can learn and grow from this situation. And fourthly, and most importantly, our lives must be "resigned,' into Gods hand.

The ship of our life will reach its final destination, the plan of God for us is not dependant upon your circumstances, nor is it dependant upon the actions of the enemy of our soul, even if it leads to our death. If that was so, then God failed eleven of the twelve Apostles. He failed all the martyrs down through the ages who fell to the lions mouth or were burned up in the zealots fire. The outcome cannot be how we determine Gods will for our lives. Yet, there are people who tell us today that the Apostle Paul preached a "weaker," message. That Paul's notion of suffering was faulty. And, because of "progressive revelation," we now have a better way. One of the most famous Word of Faith teachers preaches that. Imagine that, he knows more, and has had more revelation that the man God used to pen two thirds of the New Testament, and people fall for this. God help you if your faith is dependant upon your circumstances, you truly have built your house on shifting sands.

Here is an example of a young man who used circumstances to determine his future. Several years ago I went to the funeral of a friends son. He had been shot and killed in a drive-by shooting. He was not involved in any gang related activity, in fact he was a community activist, working in the lives of young men, who just happened to be making a phone call at a public phone. At the funeral, the old and wise Pastor told this story to the many gang members that showed up .

He told them that 5 years ago, he was in his church one night, and he heard banging and a commotion on the front door. When he opened the door there was a young man lying there, he had been shot seven times and was bleeding profusely. He called the Para-medics and rushed back to the young man and sat with him in his arms,on the steps of the church crying out to God to save this young mans life. Miraculously, the young man survived, against all the odds. The Pastor heard a few weeks after the young man was released from hospital, that he had given himself a new nickname. He called himself "superman." He would boast to other guys on the street that he was indestructible and that no bullets could stop him. A year later he was killed by a single bullet.

The moral of this story is about pride. Its about not looking inwards when trials come. The prosperity teacher will only have followers as long as his prosperity lasts. The divine health teachers will only last as long as their health lasts. Perhaps they will make it to old age, perhaps they will last a lifetime with wealth, what does any of that prove? That the wicked prosper? Well we know that the wicked do prosper often to the confusion of the genuine Christian. Yet, the solid rock upon which we stand is the fact that, despite circumstances, we stand in the shadow of His Holy wings. Despite circumstances, He will never leave us not forsake us.

This is as true to the martyrs and to the Apostles as it is to us. Its not the circumstances of this life that shape us, its our reaction to them. Satan has come to rob and to steal and to destroy, not your possessions, not your body, he cares nothing about these, he only cares about them in relation to how they relate to your trust in God, to your peace, to your joy in the Lord. These are the treasures that he is after. When the Romans tore down the Temple, they cared nothing for the building itself, they were only interested in the gold and the treasure that lay within. The reason that not one stone was left unturned was because the gold was embedded into the very joints of the stone. The treasures of the temple was then used to build the Colosseum, a place used to glorify other gods and to kill the saints to come.

How should you react to trials and tribulations, sickness and death as a genuine Christian? Always look upwards and inwards. Look to God and look inside yourself. Once you are satisfied that you have learned any lessons you need to learn, once you are satisfied that there is no hidden sin, then continue to trust God. Continue to protect your peace. In this way you will not suffer from paralysis of analysis. In this way you will glorify God despite your circumstances. Almost always, you will never figure out whether it is a test from God, or a scheme to take you down.

Put that aside, it is not important, what is important is to follow His Word and protect your witness of Him. May He be glorified in all that we do and may our Faith stand tall when the storms of life have come and done their worse, those who stand upon the solid rock will still be standing, those whose house was built on shifting sands will be crushed and blown away.



 2008/8/5 14:39
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Gods mysterious Will, how can we know what it is?

Quote:

appolus wrote:
Psalm 38:18- For I will declare my iniquity, I will be in anguish over my sin.

There has been a thousand books written on the mysterious will of God. Theologians have debated for centuries about Gods sovereign will, His permissible will. His sovereign will meaning that God rules supreme and that [b]He controls everything[/b]

Actually HE has [b]everything[/b] [u][b]under[/b][/u] [b]control[/b], see the difference?

[b]Under Control[/b] is when there are variables which you don't control, but they can't leave the bounds which you set when they stray from favorable positions/conditions.

If HE controls everything, that would mean GOD made man to sin, for HE controls even us, everything.

Just as if you are controlling a car and when you crash it, it means that you were not controlling it, unless you wanted it to crash. Then it means that you made it to crash, you controlled the car for the purpose of crashing it.

God does not control man, unless it is a drastic judgment as with King Nebuchadnezzar loosing His mind.

The term [b]sovereign[/b] only means that the one who is sovereign is the ultimate authority & all are subject to him & accountable to him.

Therefore, the term [b]Sovereign Will[/b] is only a made up term, for God only has one will and one plane.
God's single will is for His single plan to come to pass.
However, His will is multi-faceted

Quote:
Think about this. If the will of God was determined by the actions of man, then would God be sovereign?

Yes. For they would still be subject to Him and accountable to Him, GOD would still have authority over them.

Quote:
Can a man derail Gods plan?

No. Mans derailings are in His plan(thogh He didn't plan the Himself), He works around the derailings, and He made compensation and amends for it.

Quote:
Is God constantly having to change His plans to accommodate feckless man?

God plans around the choices of man.
It's like you plan on getting to a restaurant at 7:00pm and make reservations for that time, because you & you wife gets home from work at 5:30 & you know in advance that your wife takes 1 1\2 hours to get ready.
You planed the reservations to the restaurant around the fact of your wifes delay.
It is not your will for your wife to take so long, you don't actualy want her to, but you know she will, therefore, you compensate, make amends for it, you plan around it.

Good post.

 2008/8/5 18:07Profile









 Re:

Logic writes

Under Control is when there are variables which you don't control, but they can leave the bounds which you set when they stray from favorable positions/conditions.

If HE controls everything, that would mean GOD made man to sin, for HE controls even us, everything.


I like that Logic. I wonder how that would play with my Calvinistic friends :) Please, no one answer that aspect :) That has been covered many time on SI.................Frank

 2008/8/5 21:15
sojourner7
Member



Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re:

If we sincerely desire and seek the truth from
God; He will reveal His purposes and will to us:
"Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will
know whether the teaching is from God or whether
I am speaking on my own." John 7:17 {NRSV}


_________________
Martin G. Smith

 2008/8/5 22:19Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Sorry, but I accidentally made a mistake in my description of "under control"

Notice I changed the word can to can't.

Quote:
appolus wrote:
Logic writes

Under Control is when there are variables which you don't control, but they can't leave the bounds which you set when they stray from favorable positions/conditions.

If HE controls everything, that would mean GOD made man to sin, for HE controls even us, everything.


I like that Logic. I wonder how that would play with my Calvinistic friends :) Please, no one answer that aspect :) That has been covered many time on SI.................Frank

Thanx, It's like "controlled fire"

Firemen do not control every lick of flame, but the fire will not leave the bounds of which they set.

 2008/8/5 22:54Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Logic

Quote:
Actually HE has [b]everything[/b] [u][b]under[/b][/u] [b]control[/b], see the difference?

[b]Under Control[/b] is when there are variables which you don't control, but they can't leave the bounds which you set when they stray from favorable positions/conditions.

If HE controls everything, that would mean GOD made man to sin, for HE controls even us, everything.

Just as if you are controlling a car and when you crash it, it means that you were not controlling it, unless you wanted it to crash. Then it means that you made it to crash, you controlled the car for the purpose of crashing it.

God does not control man, unless it is a drastic judgment as with King Nebuchadnezzar loosing His mind.

The term [b]sovereign[/b] only means that the one who is sovereign is the ultimate authority & all are subject to him & accountable to him.

Therefore, the term [b]Sovereign Will[/b] is only a made up term, for God only has one will and one plane.
God's single will is for His single plan to come to pass.
However, His will is multi-faceted

Quote:


Excellent post brother Logic!

I really enjoyed all of your post and makes so much sense for those of us willing to listen to reason.

I've heard people say so many times that God is in control of everything and I have read signs that stated Jesus is Lord over a certain city.

Statements like these are just simply not true. If Jesus was actually Lord over something then it would be doing his Father's will.

You are so right because actually God has everything under control but until He Comes back to rule and to reign He is only actually controlling those who submit to His Lordship and the boundaries and laws He has set.

He allows a lot of things under His control during these days of grace but one day He's coming back with a vengeance toward all them who would not obey the gospel.

Blessings to you my brother!

 2008/8/5 23:10Profile









 Re:

Hi logic...I wrote a very similiar piece to the one I wrote below. If you get a chance, check it out and give me your opinion
http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2008/01/01/gods-plan-will-not-be-thwarted/

Frank

 2008/8/6 0:37









 Re: Under or Over

Is God merely under control of, or is He controlling men?

No man is excluded from the control of God.

Both the believer and unbeliever alike are instruments in His orchestra.

Even angels(elect and fallen)are not excluded.

All do His bidding.

Knowingly or unknowingly,willingly or unwillingly.

Rev. 17:17 "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

PUT is Strongs#1325, dido¯mi

Thayer has this to say on this word,

1) to give
2) to give something to someone
2a) of one’s own accord to give one something, to his advantage
2a1) to bestow a gift
2b) to grant, give to one asking, let have
2c) to supply, furnish, necessary things
2d) to give over, deliver
2d1) to reach out, extend, present
2d2) of a writing
2d3) to give over to one’s care, intrust, commit
2d3a) something to be administered
2d3b) to give or commit to some one something to be religiously observed
2e) to give what is due or obligatory, to pay: wages or reward
2f) to furnish, endue
3) to give
3a) to cause, profuse, give forth from one’s self
3a1) to give, hand out lots
3b) to appoint to an office
3c) to cause to come forth, i.e. as the sea, death and Hell are said to give up the dead who have been engulfed or received by them
3c) to give one to someone as his own
3c1) as an object of his saving care
3c2) to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master
3c3) to give one to someone to care for his interests
3c4) to give one to someone to whom he already belonged, to return
4) to grant or permit one
4a) to commission
Part of Speech: verb

FULFILL is Strong's#4160 poieo¯

Thayer Definition:
1) to make
1a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.
1b) to be the authors of, the cause
1c) to make ready, to prepare
1d) to produce, bear, shoot forth
1e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one’s self
1f) to make a thing out of something
1g) to (make, i.e.) render one anything
1g1) to (make, i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that
1g2) to (make, i.e.) declare one anything
1h) to put one forth, to lead him out
1i) to make one do something
1i1) cause one to
1j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
2) to do
2a) to act rightly, do well
2a1) to carry out, to execute
2b) to do a thing unto one
2b1) to do to one
2c) with designation of time: to pass, spend
2d) to celebrate, keep
2d1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover
2e) to perform: to a promise
Part of Speech: verb

The word FULFILLED is Teleo - Part of Speech - Verb - Definition - to bring to a close, to finish, to end, passed, finished
to perform, execute, complete, fulfil, (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command etc.) with special reference to the subject matter, to carry out the contents of a command. With reference also to the form, to do just as commanded, and generally involving the notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, fulfil.
"It is finished or paid" John 19:30

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. (Isaiah 54:16)

In the Hebrew language it is clear in these verses that God is the ultimate cause of men's actions.

Here in Isaiah 54:16 the word created is Bara'.

Part of Speech - Verb

Definition - to create, shape, form (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject).

Word Stem Qal - Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the "simple" or "casual" action of the root in the active voice.

Word Mood Perfect - The Perfect expresses a completed action. The perfect of intransitive verbs is used where English uses the present; The perfect in Hebrew in such a case emphasises a condition which has come into "complete existence" and realisation, i.e. "I know" thou wilt be king,"I hate" all workers of iniquity

The word WASTER is Shachath - Part of Speech Verb - Definition - to destroy, corrupt, go to ruin, decay (Niphal) to be marred, be spoiled, be corrupted, be corrupt, be injured, be ruined, be rotted.

The word DESTROY is Chabal - Part of Speech Verb - Definition - to bind (Qal) to bind to take a pledge, lay to pledge (Qal) to hold by a pledge, take in pledge, hold in pledge (Niphal) to give a pledge, become pledged

The Word Stem Piel usually expresses an "intensive" or "intentional" action as well as a "repeated" or "extended" action.

Again, in Isaiah 26:12 it is written, "LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us."

The same applies for these words as does Isaiah 54:16.

The word WROUGHT is Pa`al - Part of Speech Verb - Definition - to do, make. With the word Stem Qal - expressing the "simple" or "casual" action of the root in the active voice.

The word WORKS used here is Ma`aseh - Part of Speech - Noun Masculine - Definition - deed, work deed, thing done, act work, labour business, pursuit, undertaking, enterprise,achievement,deeds, works (of deliverance and judgment) work, thing made,work (of God),product

Again, God is the ultimate cause of their doing their doings as He controls their every thought, move and act. As this is according to His Word.


Psalm 105:25 "He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants."

Here again in Psalm 105:25 we see the testimony of Scripture in His inspired Word.

The word TURNED is Haphak - Part of Speech - Verb Definition - to turn, overthrow, overturn (Qal) to overturn, overthrow to turn, turn about, turn over, turn around, to change, transform.

Note again here, the word Stem Qal - expressing the "simple" or "casual" action of the root in the active voice.

Here God caused others to hate and deal subtilly with His own people for His own purpose and will.

The word HATE is Sane' - Part of Speech - Verb Definition - to hate, be hateful (Qal) to hate man or God. hater, one hating, enemy (Niphal) to be hated (Piel) hater of persons, nations, God, wisdom.

Note again here, the word Stem Qal - expressing the "simple" or "casual" action of the root in the active voice.

The word subtilly is Nakal - Part of Speech - Verb Definition - to be deceitful, be crafty, be knavish (Qal) to be knavish, deceiver,(Piel) to beguile (Hithpael) to act craftily, act knavishly, deal knavishly.

Again God is controlling man, and the effect is manifested by their action.

Proverbs 21:1 "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it withersoever he will.

Here we see that God controls nature even as He does men. The heart is the man himself, for out of it are the issues of life. (Prov.4:23)

What has been stated here from God's word ought to be sufficient for the man whom God has humbled.

Psalms 135:5-6 "For I know that the LORD is great, And our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the LORD pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places."


The scriptures refute you(r) logic!

 2008/8/7 0:45









 Re:

Wisevirgin writes........

"Again, God is the ultimate cause of their doing their doings as He controls their every thought, move and act. As this is according to His Word"


Yes, God is the "ultimate," cause to bring all of His plans to pass, of that there is no doubt. That is why Tozer's anaolgy of the passenger liner is so apt. The destination is set, but we are free to move about the ship. When the ship arrives, the final destination of the passenger will be determined upon his free will actions aboard the ship. Ship docks, then it is of to Heaven or hell based upon whether a man was born-again on the ship or not.

By His soveriegn will, the Lord has allowed His creatures free will, yet still has complete control and is able, at any time, to "intefere," in the affairs of men. Praise God that He does. My being allowed to move about the ship of destiny and make choices onboard, in no way takes away anything from God. The ship will dock at the exact destination and at the exact time God has deemed and it will never veer of course. ............Frank

 2008/8/7 8:37
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

wisevirgin wrote:

All do His bidding.

Knowingly or unknowingly,willingly or unwillingly.

Rev. 17:17 "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."




I have no problem with scripture wisevirgin just your logic with scripture.

(All do his bidding!)


Surely you don't believe child molesters are doing his will unknowingly, surely you don't...

Surely you don't believe that the five foolish virgins were doing his perfect will. (Which virgin did you say you were again)

Everybody in hell were in God's permissive will and everybody in heaven is in His perfect will.



Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 2008/8/7 9:10Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy