SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : So Which is it, Was Adam purposed to Fall or was he purposed for the incarnation of Christ Jesus?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Quote:
Why not believe this instead of accusing God of creating people with no hope of redemption just so He can send them to hell, when that is against His nature of Love.



Amen! Bro rbanks! A pleasure for me to read all you wrote.

 2008/8/5 7:29









 Re:

Quote:

rbanks wrote:
Quote:

Josef_Urban wrote:
Quote:
The devil messed that up by his solicitations to Eve.



God doesn't have a plan B. If that's the case, plan A was a miserable failure, which means God is far less than perfect. God forbid that any should suggest such!

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.



Why is it so hard to believe that God has given His creation a free will to obey or disobey?

Why do some have to think, that if God gave his creation a free will and then planned redemption because of knowing man’s failure, then that is accusing God of making a mistake?

Why can’t we just believe that within God’s sovereignty He gave man a free will to choose to love Him and obey Him?

Why is it so hard to believe that God Gave Lucifer (an archangel) so much power and freedom that He got proud and because God gave Him freedom He abused it to try and get praised for himself?

Why is it so hard to believe that in God’s sovereignty He allowed it to happen and therefore created man a little lower than the angels to defeat Satan?

So creating man lower than the angels, God wanted man to overcome the devil and rid the world of evil. God being all knowing, He knew the risk of giving man free will and prepared a head of time for redemption. He kept man from eating of the tree of Life after he sinned, so that he would not be glorified in a sinful state but could be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and still overcome the devil.

The overcomers in Christ shall inherit all things and have a glorified body like the angels in the resurrection. Praise God!

Why not believe this instead of accusing God of creating people with no hope of redemption just so He can send them to hell, when that is against His nature of Love.

Blessings to all!



Where is God's grace violated and why call the above, man's reasoning anymore than what you would yours, except you have a bias. I wrote the Bible is supportive of God intending for Adam to be HIS representative of man, as He intended man to be. Adam failed, he did not achieve God's purpose, i.e., Throne-ship in the Godhead. God planned for such a failure. Jesus, the second Adam, now makes it possible.
How does that go against the Grace of God. It is a statement of fact as it can be seen from scriptures. Please explain.

 2008/8/5 7:36
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re: Straw man in Paradise.

Hi there Dear Saints,

After reading some of the posts here I have decided to comment on this, Maybe it will help maybe it will not, but here it goes....

I believe that God has written a very special book to tell us about Him and His unfathomed love for us. But I also believe that when we talk about God and His attributes we should take our spiritual shoes off for this is Holy ground.

Let's us all be very careful so that God won't rebuke us with the same words that were directed to Job.

Job 38:1-2 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?

===========================================

Having said that let's us all believe that the Grace given to us at calvary through Jesus Christ is sufficient for the salvation of all of us who believes.

Now I believe in a God whose character is love, but also just.

And Ezekiel tells us that God wants us to live.

Ezekiel 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:31-32 "Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!"

I don't believe it could be any clearer.

God has no pleasure that anyone should die,

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Now, I have given my life to Christ, I have washed my robes in his blood and I keep His commandments through the guidance of the Holy Spirit because He abides in me, but I am not a calvinist, I do not believe that some are predestined to be saved and some not, I believe that we are all predestined to be saved and by our own rejection of the Gospel we doom ourselves to everlasting death.

This question is for the Calvinits?

Because I do not believe in calvinism, Am I lost? or am I saved because of the blood of the lamb?


1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.


I thank God that His Grace is extented to all who believes. Therefore let's all preach the gospel of Christ so that we can give to good news to as many as possible.

If we are predestined to either be saved or lost then what is the point in preaching the gospel?


May the Love of Christ abide in us all.

 2008/8/5 7:49Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Those with “Calvinist” inquiries may wish to start new threads dealing with their particular questions so as to not detract from the subject of this thread and catch the eyes of those able and willing to answer.

I have only recently begun to study Cal/Ref doctrine. I will add if I can, but will mostly leave it to those much wiser than myself.

Grace and peace to all


_________________
TJ

 2008/8/5 8:23Profile









 Re:

This is not arguable:

The man Jesus, became the first man to achieve divinity. He did so by obedience to His Father.

Now what would have happened had Adam been obedient?

With Jesus, the incarnation was there at His birth/conception, to be tried and tested in a man. In the case with Adam, who was created and not begotten, hence created without divinity in him, had he eaten of the tree of Life first would have had the Nature of the Father [Divinity] deposited in him, to become the same as what Jesus possessed, "begottenhood". Quite possibly Adam may even have had to experience a 'thirty years of silence' time period before putting to prison forever the enemy of God and man. We can say without, error that both men were given to learn the Character of the Father before expressing Him in power and might.
Keeping in mind, Jesus had His graduation whereby He had completed all the testings of the Father, Oswald Chambers has it that by a series of moral choices Adam would have had his own graduation day; his own Transfiguration.

So what is the difference here is, had Adam not transgressed redemption would not have been necessary. Quite possibly even his name would have been changed to "Emanuel, God with us" who has all authority both in all of Heaven and Earth.

This is what Jesus came to earth to accomplish. However, before He could get God's program back on track, He had to first redeem man. Those in Him are His "new creation." But either way you look at it, Him being incarnated into Adam or that of a baby birthed by a virgin in a stable, Jesus still had to come, to step into the scene that Satan be defeated and for man to progress to Joint-heir-ship in the Godhead. the man Jesus being the "first of first fruits".

 2008/8/5 8:32









 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Those with “Calvinist” inquiries may wish to start new threads dealing with their particular questions so as to not detract from the subject of this thread and catch the eyes of those able and willing to answer.

I have only recently begun to study Cal/Ref doctrine. I will add if I can, but will mostly leave it to those much wiser than myself.

Grace and peace to all



Thanks tjservant. I had hoped this wouldn't get off on Cal-Ref vs anything else, tangent. I am after objectivity in this that the scriptures might be examined without biasness entering in.

 2008/8/5 8:41









 Re:

This kind of thinking is totally wrong.

Quote:
Jesus was "incarnated" to be Crucified, and overcome Death, not for reasons of Adams existence. "For this reason was the Son of Man manifested, that He might destroy the works of the Devil!" Jesus came to rescue Adam, and his "children, from a fate to horrible to think. We were helpless.



"Behold, I make all things new" . . NOT I make new all things. In other words, Jesus doesn't make the old things new. "Adam" is not a man made over but a totally new man. No rescue in this.

Part of what Jesus did by coming to earth was to set the captives free. The captives also included the righteous dead who were in paradise. Paradise, the "abode of the righteous dead", "Abraham's bossom", was NOT a place of torment. If a 'thinker' of the scriptures gets this part wrong, much of all else in his thinking will also be wrong.

 2008/8/5 8:47









 Re: Straw man in Paradise....Ormley





Since you have quoted me, a little out of context, I am presenting you again with my entire quote.

Quote:

Brothertom wrote:


"Did George W. Bush invade Iraq because he liked boxing, and enjoyed a healthy fight, or was it because he has seen too many John Wayne movies?"

This is called a straw man, a term that Sermonindex folks are well aware of, as they are inundated with this kind of logic. It means basing your opinions and statements upon a faulty assumption, and then comparing that assumption with your ideas to form a division that may appear to qualify an empirical judgement. [empirical means the logical process of "if this is so, therefore this stands to reason."]
'Purposed to fall"

In your case, your inquisitive assumptions are both faulty, and without merit, so that whatever is derived upon either logic would bolster your perceived enigma unto the negative. It is Questioning one untruth in an either or process to accept another untruth. In one sense, it is not worthy of responding to, for this reason alone. I question whether your inquisition is authentic, and not contrived for reasons of controversy or the "uncaused cause"...ergo; the enigma.


If Adam was purposed to fall, then was the human race purposed to fall. This means that my God designed much of humanity to boil in sulphur throughout Eternities, as His will. You have my God mixed up with another of his creations, that became pure evil. The first leg of your straw man; to me; a little blasphemous. Jesus suffered, after he left his throne in pure love, to bleed and be tortured to rescue Adam. It was not His purpose for Adam to fall, but to live, as an object of His affections. He adored Adam, and redeemed him, at great cost to Himself....the death and Sacrifice of His Son, Yahweh Yeshua!

"Purposed for the incarnation"
This has similar implications.

The incarnation was arrived at before the foundation of the world, when Jesus was slain. Adams purpose was that God desired a son, and children, that He could pour Himself into, and enjoy. God loves, and he loved Adam. He saw that all of Creation was "GOOD"
edit.
[ This is the part that you have stated that was all wrong, with wrong thinking.]

"Jesus was "incarnated" to be Crucified, and overcome Death, not for reasons of Adams existence. "For this reason was the Son of Man manifested, that He might destroy the works of the Devil!" Jesus came to rescue Adam, and his children, from a fate to horrible to think. We were helpless. " [here it is in context.] [I'll let the forum debate what is sound, or wrong thinking....Tom.]....edited to clarify quote, 30 minutes after post...


Adam was not purposed "for the incarnation". He was simply bound and without hope, in the midst of his life, and driven away in despair from Eden. The "incarnation" was not founded on the fact that Adam existed, or was created, but in order to Redeem Adam, the Lord Yahweh had to become an Adam...of the race of men. "Lo, a body has thou prepared for Me!"[it is written in the BOOK!"]



Adam was purposed to live, and be, in the fellowship of His Creator. Jesus manifested Himself to bring mercies, and restoration, in spite of Adam's apparent hopeless state; to overcome Death, and the grave...which are, by the way, Eternal places.



Janus was an early name of Satan within the Babylonian religions. He was depicted as a two faced being, with only one head. This is what your straw man reminds me of. Two lies opposing the other to prove one or the other as a truth.


"Has God Said?"............

 2008/8/5 9:46









 Re:

Quote:
The man Jesus, became the first man to achieve divinity. He did so by obedience to His Father.



Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was born as the incarnate Son of God, being God in the flesh?

 2008/8/5 10:18









 Re:

Out of context or in context it is still poor reasoning, given the scriptures.

I can only hope that one may read my posts and conclude there is more to our redemption and life established IN the grace of God than receiving a paid up fire insurance policy.

Creation is more than that. . . much more.













g

 2008/8/5 10:22





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy