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Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Airo

The Greek word "airo":

142 airw airo ah’-ee-ro

a primary root; TDNT-1:185,28; v

AV-take up 32, take away 25, take 25, away with 5, lift up 4, bear 3, misc 8; 102

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up
1a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones
1b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
1c) to draw up: a fish
2) to take upon one’s self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off
3a) to move from its place
3b) to take off or away what is attached to anything
3c) to remove
3d) to carry off, carry away with one
3e) to appropriate what is taken
3f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
3g) to take and apply to any use
3h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
3i) cause to cease


It is used in John 15 and is translated as "taketh away":

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


My questions are:

1. Is this taking away a good thing or a bad thing (for the person)?
2. Is this one parable or more than one?
3. What does it mean in verse 2 where is says "Every branch 'in' me"? Is this a person who is really 'in' Him? If a person is truly 'in' Him can he ever be 'out' of Him.
4. What does it mean to be 'in' Him.


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Mark Nash

 2004/7/7 5:53Profile
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 Re: Airo

Brother this is a very tricky subject especially the true meaning of that word. I would suggest before we go any further you watch this video of Keith Daniel, it would shed alot of light on the signifigance of that word, I also must confess at this point in my walk I don't know.

[b][url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4226]Abide In Me (video) [/url][/b] by Keith Daniel - [i]This message presents a powerful and honest look at John 15:1-8 “I am the vine, ye are the branches . . .” Keith Daniel challenges his listeners to examine their relationships with Christ. He emphasizes the vital necessity of having a personal quiet time and making it the most important thing in your life. “He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”[/i]


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/7/7 11:27Profile
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 Re:

Re: Keith Daniel,

Had the exact same thought.
Also, Nasher, not to confuse the issue, but was reading through Romans and began wondering if there isn't some corelation here:

"And if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump: and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;"

Rom 11:16-25

Primarily "in" and "unbelief" as they relate to your question.
Also with Greg here, I don't know either...


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Mike Balog

 2004/7/7 13:19Profile
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 Re:

This is a little lengthy… my apologies.

I once heard a preacher who interpreted this use of the word by saying it meant he ‘lifted up’ the branches of the vine to aerate them and so ensure future fruitfulness. I have to say I always felt that this was a very strained interpretation. I think we can remove that possibility by recognising that this discourse really covers chapters 14-16 and the word is used again; And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. (Joh 16:22 KJV) There can be no doubt that in the second use he means ‘remove’. It would be a recipe for confusion to use the word in two such different ways in the same context. I think we can be sure that the word bears the same meaning each time in this discourse.

As I have waited on the Lord, this is my understanding of the verse...
First, consider the geographical context. The last verse of John 14 says ‘Arise, let us go hence.’ John 18:1 says When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples. (Joh 18:1 KJV) So somewhere in between the Upper Room and Gethsemane Christ spoke these words. The words appear suddenly without introduction or provocation. What is the significance of this? We do not know the route that Christ took from the Upper Room to Gethsemene, but one possible route would have taken them through the Temple courts. I would like to suggest a geographical context for these words; the Great Vine. Around the Holy Place there was was a huge freize. It was one of the symbols of Israel (Psa 80:8; Jer 2:21, Eze 19:10; Joel 1:7) a gigantic vine of pure gold, and made of votive offerings--each cluster the height of a man. I think it likely that as they crossed the Court they paused, Christ looked up, saw the Symbol and said “I am the True Vine”.

There is a sobering passage in Matthew; O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (Mat 23:37-24:2 KJV) At the beginning of His ministry He had reclaimed this building as ‘My Father’s House’, now He disowns it; your house is left unto you desolate. Matt 24:1 shows the context of this shocking word; He was in the Temple. It seems as though their comments are the result of their protest to at this statement; And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (Mar 13:1-2 KJV)
These passages portend the end of Israel as God’s kingdom of priests, and as God’s vineyard; What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others. (Mar 12:9 KJV)

I read the same mood in John 15. En route to Gethsemane they pause before the great symbol of Israel’s intended fruitfulness. Is there anything more fruitful than a healthy vine? But Israel has failed and the True Israel will fulfil all that they failed to be, hence I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (Joh 15:1 KJV) Natural Israel had become a branch not bearing fruit (Joh 15:2). It was not just that, at that time, it was not bearing fruit; it had become ‘none-fruit bearing’. (For those interested the Greek used the participle; bearing.) This is not an event in the life of this branch, it is now the settled characteristic of this branch. There is a passage in Ezekiel which I feel sure was in His mind, if not theirs; Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Son of man, how is the wood of the vine better than any wood of a branch which is among the trees of the forest? "Can wood be taken from it to make anything, or can men take a peg from it on which to hang any vessel? "If it has been put into the fire for fuel, and the fire has consumed both of its ends and its middle part has been charred, is it then useful for anything? "Behold, while it is intact, it is not made into anything. How much less, when the fire has consumed it and it is charred, can it still be made into anything! (Eze 15:1-5 NASB) The burden of these verses is that if a vine branch is not fruitful it is utterly useless; it can only have one destination.

So I interpret these verses as Israel’s death sentence; suspended as events were to prove, but ultimately enacted. As individuals they could respond to Him and be made part of the True Vine, but their national destiny was lost.

I don’t think this verse has relevance to personal salvation but to corporate service. As the passage continues I can see both corporate and personal application in His declaration that the Father, the husbandman, prunes in order to guarantee more fruit. The abiding in Him then becomes the sure way of ensuring the fruit; Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. (Joh 15:16 KJV)

Just my thoughts…


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Ron Bailey

 2004/7/7 14:44Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Also, Nasher, not to confuse the issue, but was reading through Romans and began wondering if there isn't some corelation here:


Hi Mike
Have just posted a thought or two. I decided against moving on to Romans, but I think you may see they are very much connected in my thinking.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/7/7 14:58Profile
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 Re:

Thanks Ron.

No need for apologies, this is very informative. Recall hearing that same 'upholding' interpetation as well and it didn't ring true.

Also recall about the freize (perhaps from you) and that is a very keen observation. Tying this all together with the ideas in Romans only has me begging more questions. Think I need to sit under the shade of this tree and ponder for awhile...

But this much is certain:

Quote:
The abiding in Him then becomes the sure way of ensuring the fruit;



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Mike Balog

 2004/7/8 0:55Profile
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 Re:

I was studying the 'true' things of John and discovered this. The 'true vine' in Greek is 'the vine, the genuine (or true). The words used are ampelos-vine and alEthinos-true/genuine. I had not realised that the LXX (septuagint) has a very similar phrase in Jer 2:21 "Yet I planted thee a fruitful vine, entirely of the right sort: how art thou a strange vine turned to bitterness!"
'vine' is 'ampelos' and 'right' is alEthinos.

This speaks of God's people as a 'genuine vine' which had become bitter. Christ now declares Himself to be the 'genuine vine'. The fate of the 'bitter branch' is told in the succeeding verses of John 15.

I think it very likely that Jer 2:21 as well as Ezekiel 15 was in mind with this saying.

This may appear obscure to some reading this, but I think it strengthens my earlier comments on this topic.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/8/21 17:46Profile
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 Re:

Ron, You mentioned this sentence from your last but one post

Quote:
I don’t think this verse has relevance to personal salvation but to corporate service.


Would you expound more on this please(obviously without distraction to the thread)
thanks


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derek Eyre

 2004/8/23 8:42Profile
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 Re:

Hi Derek
I think 'calling' and 'predestination' have more to do with our service that with personal salvation. (there are others who have come to this conclusion too; Campbell Morgan, AW Tozer.) The people of Israel were given a unique 'ministry' but rejected it. Ultimately the dividing hedge was broken down and the kingdom given to another. [Matt 21:43]

I think this is the emphasis in Romans 9-11 too. Esau despised his birthright and forfeited his destiny. Edom (the descendents of Esau) never served God, but Israel (the descendents of Jacob) did. Pharaoh could have cooperated with God but resisted and was destroyed. These are familiar themes but the point in focus is not (I think) personal salvation, but service.

I think the point in focus in John 15 is not personal salvation but service. Israel became the unfaithful servant; Christ is Jehovah's faithful servant. Israel became the degenerate vine; Christ is the True Vine.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/8/23 9:32Profile
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 Re:

Ron, thanks.
I think i'm seeing this as you put it. I must now read these passages again..knowing me, this will take some time
thanks bro :-)


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derek Eyre

 2004/8/23 18:26Profile





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