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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The “whosoever that believeth”

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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257



Greetings brother in the name of Jesus!

I really do hope you will pray and help us in our study as we allow the Holy Spirit to give us greater understanding.

Love in Christ -rbanks

 2008/8/1 22:31Profile

Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991


I like this quote from john Calvin

No man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open unto all men: neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief.

John Calvin

even Calvin was quite the arminian :-P

seriusly this is a hard thing, as roaringlamb has showed from scripture, no one can be saved unless God draws them first, that is true and rigth from scripture.

but the same inspired word says God wants all men to be saved, same scripture says God wants all men to repent.

so we need to treat all scripture with the same reverence, often we chose scriptures to fit a doctrine, both sides does, its only when we accept all scriptures we get the truth.

you might not understand it, but without truth there will not be any growth, no maturing, its a blessed thing to be able to say as Tozer did, the quote from TJ.

there are many scriptures that say God saved us and it was a gift, we cant deserve or do anything to earn the gift, but you have to hold out your hand to receive it.

Most people dont, but those who do can receive grace and be saved.
most of us have received free gifts from other people, we had to accept it before it was ours.

so it is with Jesus to, we cant do anything ourselves but when we receive the gift we need stretch out our hand and receive it. in repentance and faith. Then we will be born again.

I have many brothers in both views, what is my grief i think so many overlook scripture to hold fast a doctrine. Or make verses meen other then what they say in its context.

When we read scripture honest just as they say, both calvinism and arminianism fall.

I know there are extreme calvinists, some even say God made Adam sin in the garden, God was the author of that so he later could get the glory, some say God chosen some for hell, even thou there are not one single verse in the bible that says so.

but also there are those calvinist who are more moderate and even those who can say they dont know.

anyway, i wish all blessing to all in their pursuit of the truth, just see to it whatever doctrine you may hold, that it set you free from sin, the world, and the self.

No matter what doctrine, if it does not do this it is a deception.

onward towards perfection brothers and sisters.


 2008/8/2 2:31Profile

Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


It would have been nice if you had of thought more about the original post in this thread.

It would have been nice if you had of followed the posts and been more sensitive to the spirit of where we were.

Yes it would have been nice, but you used your free will, and done what you wanted to.

But brother since you are claiming to be one of God’s elect, at least try and humble yourself from all your superior knowledge over us,

Nah, I dont' see you as prideful, dear Roaringlamb.

Thank you rather, for I learned quite a lot from the couple of posts you shared on this thread, they replenished of what I missed in my understanding of those texts. It's alright, brother Roaringlamb, I can use some of that superior "roaring" of Scriptures, I haven't yet seen any pride on your part, ever, on SI anyways. And I appreciate your standing down on this one, [i]that[/i] shows humility.

The Word of God must be understood and accepted as they are proclaimed, nice or not. How is one proud and not nice when one tries to share knowledge? It's perhaps not nice to place a stumbling block to our brethren even when they do not agree with us.

Does any of us has all the knowledge of Scripture, let alone full knowledge of The Christ? Did Paul even claim to only know in part?

We must all be very proud of Scripture, as It's written and proclaimed.

I am proud, all too proud, of all those who are willing to take a stand for Truth...including you Rbanks...only not to be all too dogmatic with our own version of truth, but God's Truth.


Ephesians 4:2
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love..

 2008/8/2 10:17Profile

Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


Anything that is done without God's hand in it is foolishness. Similarly a discussion/question/defence of theology or doctrines to supposedly/really preserved the truth (no matter how sincere we are) is useless if we do not seek God beforehand and ask how we should go about it or if even we should go about it because it may do more harm than good. This usually happens when we so vigorously defend a doctrine/thought/warning without seeking God earnestly what His will is in the matter. Is there still benefit to be gained?--maybe, but it will be so much more if we would ask God and let Him direct us beforehand.

This thread was not an intellectual debate for me where defense of what one believes take precedence of asking God. It was a thread filled with anger, anguish, fear, trembling for myself and others.

I pretty much always ask God beforehand whether I should post and how I should write in this forum (although sometimes I get fed up etc. As a result I seem more 'holy' then I actually am which I do not like at all as it gives the wrong impression of who I am).

I tremble with fear whenever I write that I believe this is what God wants me to do/lead me on this verse etc--what if I'm wrong? I should just shut my mouth up. How am I going to answer at the Judgement Seat of Christ if I'm wrong? But so far, I believe God has not convicted me of this yet. I pray that it will not be in this post either.

Only in this thread and another thread (which is of no major consequence but I do repent posting it) I didn't really seek God first in my first post for guidance.

I believe I understand now the major reason I didn't seek God out on this first before posting. God wanted me to experience all the emotions to mold me further and strengthen myself in my walk with God. Even after this, there will be many lessons for me to learn from here. It has taught me many things and not just on this topic. This thread may even be useful to others (that I do not wish to guess). In my anguish, I cried out to the Lord to show me His will and guide me to verses etc. If I was wrong, let me know even if I was trembling in fright. If it was to remain a mystery, so be it. God would at certain times allay some of my anguish/fear while showing verses etc that would frighten me.

Only at the end of the journey did I finally have peace. I reject wholeheartedly the fact that man do not have free will to choose God...but even then I knew that God had to do something more for me to witness effectively without some lingering doubts as I do not want to hide something that important from people that I'm hoping to witness.

He finally did. On my walk, I saw an old man and an old woman. Tears filled my eyes and I knew it was God putting the love there. The message was clear: Do I not love them also. I can now witness effectively without feeling the guilt that I am witholding something back.


 2008/8/2 12:20Profile

Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA


so we need to treat all scripture with the same reverence, often we chose scriptures to fit a doctrine, both sides does, its only when we accept all scriptures we get the truth.

Very true hmmhmm.

Randy Alcorn had this to say on the subject:

"Our desire for logical consistency, as we understand it, can become our God. Then we, not Scripture and not God, become our own ultimate authority. We end up ignoring, rejecting, or twisting Scripture that doesn't fit our chosen theology. On the contrary, our theology should be a reflection of Scripture itself, and wherever Scripture teaches apparently contradictory ideas, our theology should embrace those same ideas, rather than resort to a consistency which rejects part of God's revealed Word."

As far as election goes, Charles Spurgeon puts it into words much better than I.

“That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. – C.H. Spurgeon (New Park Street Pulpit, 4:337)


 2008/8/2 12:41Profile

Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257



mamaluk wrote:

Nah, I dont' see you as prideful, dear Roaringlamb.

RoaringLamb, I don’t see you as being prideful either and respect you more for showing humility.

I ask you to forgive me where I have offended you with the strong words because I believe there could have been a better choice of words if my vocabulary was larger.

I also will admit that there was a slight fear that this thread was about to get hijacked from the real honesty that was being reveal by the people posting on this thread.

I have seen others get hijacked with hyper theology that kills the spirit of understanding where we are and what we really need to see.

I apologize again and very much appreciated your display of humility, which was evident for all to see.

Blessings brother!

 2008/8/2 17:18Profile

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California


Brother rbanks,

I understand how hyper-Calvinists can be a bit scary, and also wrong. But I am not one at all.

I once was proud and arrogant, and apart from God's grace would be so every minute of every day. Ahh but He has a way of using rods to strike away that pride.

For me one such rod was the confrontation I had to endure when I began to search the Doctrines of Grace for myself rather than leaning upon what I had been taught. It was not fun at all, but it has blessed me beyond belief to know the great grace of my Father to me in Christ.

One of these days if you have not already, do a search on the topic of "Calvinism" on sermonindex, and I think you'll find more in depth posts from myself and others which may prove fruitful to you.

But as any Calvinist(if I must identify myself with this nickname)would say, "only God can reveal these things, and man cannot."

If I can be a vessel or tool to help someone see Christ as their all sufficient Savior, it is a privilege.

By the way, no apology necessary. It is always good to check myself to make sure.

God's grace to you brother.

patrick heaviside

 2008/8/2 17:35Profile

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791



rbanks wrote:
Thank you theopenlife for the writing by Pink, and I did enjoy a lot of what I read, but still there is the part of the mystery of God’s elect.

I read the first part and some of the second part and agreed with most and very thankful for the knowledge of the word in this dear brother’s life and teaching. As I was reading the [b]mystery[/b] became clearer to me.

The truth of scripture is wonderful concerning God’s election. I agree with all the truth in scripture He has found but the [b]mystery[/b] concerning election that he has come to try to explain I just disagree. Let met tell you why, because I believe when God says he so loved the world and Jesus died for everyone that is clear.

Understanding also became clearer where the scripture says "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). I believe the [b]mystery[/b]is in God’s foreknowledge. We know that God elected us before the foundation of the world because with God the end is always contained in the beginning.

When I see the word "mystery" I would like to clear something up about the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man.

There is a difference between a mystery and a contradiction.

A mystery is something we do not fully understand yet. For example, the trynity.

A contradiction is something that we do comprehend, but it is incompatible with reality and truth. We comprehend that it can be, and that it is real because it makes sense. However, it is a contradiction to reality and truth, it can not be.

For example the teaching that God controls everything by His "sovereign will". We are apart of that everything that He controls, and if He controls us, and we sin, He is controlling us to sin. This makes God is the author of sin, yet the contradiction is that man is responsible for sin which God controlled.

We can comprehend this, however, it is a contradiction.

 2008/8/5 18:01Profile

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