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learn
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Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

I tend to believe the 'elect people' are those that earnestly seek God and God saved through grace by faith (God gives the faith and repentance for them to be borne again). Thus, its a gift.

Quote
'If the decisive determination of salvation rests on the unprovoked will of man, and not on the determination of God to secure that person's salvation, then would not man receive that crowning element of glory?'End quote


We cannot use the quote above, because Jesus died so that our sins can be forgiven. How then can we say that 'man receive the crowning element of glory'.


When God created this earth, Adam etc, I tend to believe He chosed the way to be saved is through Jesus and its a free gift and those that do not want to earnestly seek Him, they will go to hell.


No, I don't think that it was foreknowledge of Jesus dying on the cross, that God elect that to happen.


However, just because of the above paragraph, we should not confuse it then, that that means God elect who He wants to save /do not save regardless of whether a person earnestly chose to seek him or not. God then gives to the 'elect person' a 'wanting to be saved' mentality, after which God will then grant him salvation.


Why do we reject the possibility that it may pleased God to put in every person, the ability to chose to earnestly seek Him, and those that does, God then will grant salvation (ie ability for the person to have faith and repent)to this person.

We cannot use the arguement that because 'God saw into the future before creation who will be saved and then choses His elect',-- then this is wrong as it looks like God is 'reacting' to humans.
What happens is that possibly God may delight in choosing this method ie of letting those that want to be saved to come to Him. He of course knows who will be saved as He sees all things past, present and future--thus He is not reacting at all to humans. After all He chose this method (we should not restrict His method of choosing due to our inability to comprehend God)

God is just. God's ways are also higher than our ways and beyond our comprehension. Also, if I remember correctly, there is supposedly to be no conflict in the Bible. Just because we humans see quite a few 'conflicts'/'disagreements' in the bible, doesn't mean that there's conflict. It just means, that we are unable to see/interpret/comprehend how the different pieces gel together.


Paris Reidhead mentioned in his sermon ' Ten Shekels and a shirt' that he went to Africa/South Africa because he was not willing for those to die without hearing the gospel. However, nobody wanted to be saved. He was very angry with God for 'sending him there' and God told him that (I paraphrase--it goes something like that)' Will not the Judge of the Earth do right? They deserve hell as they are hard hearted. I sent you there for my sake, not their sake'


David Wilkerson said that the Holy Ghost told him that 1 of the sufferings of those people going to hell will be that they will keep recalling all those times that they heard the gospel and refused to be save. In a way, those that have heard the gospel will suffer more than those that did not hear it

Leonard Ravenhill mentioned that he believed Jesus was weeping in 1 of the bible scenes because the 'Jews' were hardened and that they were going to hell.

Do the above 3 situations then show that we humans are also given a choice as to whether we chose to seek God or not


I believe in the bible it mentions that 'nobody can say that God was not just'. Now, if God is just, then how can 'the elect people' be as mentioned by some here? We can say that God is all powerful, He is the creator, He can chose what He wants to do because He is the creator, but can everyone say then that He is just?


Let us not restrict God's method just because we are unable to comprehend.

The bible does mention 'elect people', predestined etc but lets not forget, it doesn't tell us how God chose his 'elect people'. The bible does however mention that 'those who seek Him, he will not reject'

Can one feel the guilt of witnessing to someone (say Mrs A) if they think that Mrs A may not have been granted the chance to choose whether she wants to seek God. What happens if Mrs A is a loved one, then it would be even more guilt when we worked so hard to convert her but she is not responding and we start thinking that maybe we should not have tried so hard as God may not want her to be saved. Not only that, we start feeling very guilty to her as well.


There are some things that we are not meant to know and possibly how God choses His 'elect people' may very well be one of them.


_________________
geraldine

 2008/7/31 22:09Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Thanks for your post learn, I really enjoyed reading it. I would say I agree more with your post.

Here is something for us all to think about.

If you are born of the Holy Spirit then you are God’s elect and because I am born of the Holy Spirit I am God’s elect. Praise is to God!!!

You may say that you believe certain individuals were destined to be God’s elect before they had an opportunity to hear the gospel and that others will be lost for eternity because that is just the way God wanted it to be. But this makes it appear like God didn’t love some of his creation, but we just don’t know why He created them to go to Hell.

I say that God wants to save everybody if only their eyes would be opened to the truth (I know the apostle Paul was doing everything he could to see more saved). This may sound like man would be getting some glory but I don’t believe that is the case because without the grace of God, all is hopeless.

I guess I had rather be accused of man getting a little glory (which I don’t believe) than sounding like God created some just to go to hell. I see God different than that. I don’t see how we are giving God glory by accusing Him of creating people to go to Hell.

Blessings to all! -rbanks

 2008/7/31 23:31Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:
If you are born of the Holy Spirit then you are God’s elect and because I am born of the Holy Spirit I am God’s elect. Praise is to God!!!



I think 1 John can show us if we are in Gods elect, it is hard but it is there, we know many will belive they are in the elect, but never knew him matt 7.

another thing is, we look at predestination as a huge lottery before time way back in eternity. I think that is wrong thinking-

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

we see clearly, if we are predestinated, its not to go to heaven as some say, its to holy and without blame before him in love

so again, no matter if you hold tightly to a predestinarian doctrine, if you are not becoming like Jesus your not one of the elect, even if we intellectually think we are.

if it does not free us from sin we should be worried.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2008/7/31 23:45Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:

so again, no matter if you hold tightly to a predestinarian doctrine, if you are not becoming like Jesus your not one of the elect, even if we intellectually think we are.

if it does not free us from sin we should be worried.



Thank you brother I agree 100% because God will have a holy people and a glorious church without spot or wrinkle.

Blessings!

 2008/7/31 23:53Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Brother rbanks

I hope you find some time to check out the article I suggested. I believe you will glean much from it. It might be that we share more than you think. Please give it a read.


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TJ

 2008/7/31 23:55Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Some of the best writings I have ever read on holiness were by Calvinists. I would suggest J.C. Ryle's book, Holiness, to anyone.


_________________
TJ

 2008/8/1 0:00Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
another thing is, we look at predestination as a huge lottery before time way back in eternity. I think that is wrong thinking-



You are right it is not like a lottery. You provided the answer it in the scripture you posted.

Eph 1:5 "according to the good pleasure of his will"


_________________
TJ

 2008/8/1 0:08Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Brother rbanks

I hope you find some time to check out the article I suggested. I believe you will glean much from it. It might be that we share more than you think. Please give it a read.



Thank you brother TJ,

Thank you for the article I was very blessed by reading it.

I was thrilled reading about 2Pe. 3:9, because I believe the way he does concerning that scripture and others.

I assume He is a Calvinist, and if He is, I can agree more with him than John MacArthur, Pink, and some others. Even though I know God has revealed a lot to them.

Thanks brother, I really do mean it, because some of the Calvinists are so hard about things they think they know so much about like talking about no freewill or the idol of the free will but He was refreshing concerning sovereignty and freewill.

I really do like theopenlife though and can really see Jesus in his writings. It doesn't bother me, that I don't see everything like He does, for I know he is a brother in the Lord.

Blessings to all!



 2008/8/1 0:52Profile
learn
Member



Joined: 2008/7/24
Posts: 613


 Re:

In Corrie Ten Boom's book, her father was a Calvinist and it seems to her he talked a lot about predestination. When she asked her father what predestination meant, he said : 'The grounds on which I build my faith is not in me but in the faithfulness of God'

Just some thoughts

It cannot be a 'lottery' when one knows who will be saved or not ahead of time and still chose to apply the method. Don't forget, God wants a relationship with us, if he wanted someone to obey him without a choice of deciding, then I believe the bible would be very different from what it is now.

I love Paul Washer's sermons but when I heard him, I was saying to myself, he surely will have some weakness in his sermon as God wants us to look to Him and not somebody else for the final authority in his teaching. (After all, it will be dangerous when a time comes when a person trust more in a preacher than the bible. Every person is liable to be in error somewhere but not God)

Hell is God's wrath poured out on mankind. God is angry at sin and sinners. Sin is doing something that is displeasing to God (that earlier sentence is mine). If a man has no choice to seek the Lord, then how can he be guilty of sin, since he does not understand his sinful nature. Doesn't the bible tells us that while we were still sinners, we did not understand our sins nor can we avoid them(something like that--I'm bad with memorizing verses)


Sometimes we try to give God all the glory, but in trying to do so, unknowingly end up limiting His choices/methods/sovereignty. Sometimes too, we tend make the bible so hard to understand, instead of reading and understanding it like a child. I think all of us including myself are guilty of these at 1 point or another.

Some things are best left unknown. It can become a snare to us and to those that we are sharing the gospel to. Guilt, inability to answer honestly, to preach effectively, to cause fear in those that are really trying to seek the Lord but feel that God has not chosen them etc--the list goes on.

Corrie Ten Boom's father told her not to run ahead of God when she said that she did not know whether she was brave enough to be a martyr for Christ. When the time comes to know something, God will reveal (her father used the analogy that he gave the train ticket to her just before she board the train and not earlier)

If God puts the burden in one's heart to find out, then do it as its God's will and God will show you. If not, then its better not to as it will just end with frustration, not to say God will rebuke us and if one does not listen, stricter discipline will occur.


_________________
geraldine

 2008/8/1 1:44Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Learn, thank you for taking time to post your experience and thoughts. Robert, thank you as well for the encouraging word.

Learn, you wrote,

Quote:
I tend to believe the 'elect people' are those that earnestly seek God and God saved through grace by faith.



I believe the verse says, "By grace, through faith."

I do not believe faith is anything other than the appointed means through which God gives the benefits of His grace, and that He gives that faith to whom He chooses. Not that faith is a thing, per say, which can be held or felt, to be given, but that God provides the change of nature to produce the innate response of faith.

I agree, the elect are those who earnestly seek God. But I believe further that their seeking resulted from election to grace, rather than being the cause of it.

 2008/8/1 2:05Profile





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