| The whosoever that believeth|
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
The bible is clear that the gospel of salvation is given to everyone that believes.
I believe God predestined according to His foreknowledge.
Does the whosoever that believeth become the elect?
Does the Elect become the whosoever that believeth?
How do you see it and what scriptures have you found?
| 2008/7/30 17:45||Profile|
| Re: The whosoever that believeth|
Hello, again, Robert.
Thoughtful questions, and very important.
I believe the scriptures teach "whosoever believes" will be saved. Who ever comes to Christ, truly and not falsely, will have eternal life.
I also read in the Word that saints believe because they were first elected to the grace necessary to believe.
My conviction is that no one comes to Christ by a decisive work of their own ability, but do so in response to the effectual call of God who "grants repentance" and gives faith as a "gift".
I believe the elect are a definite "remnant according to grace", chosen from eternity to be subjects of God's victorious love, without regard for their foreseen willingness to fulfill the gospel commands. Moreover, none would repent and believe unless they did not first receive the "drawing" of the Father, the "new birth" of the Spirit. And that all who receive the effectual call do certainly come, because their nature is transformed to desire life through faith in Christ.
This is to say, the elect are always called "chosen from eternity," "before the foundation of the world."
The elect are manifested by their willingness to believe, which willingness comes from a renewed nature, as a result of the sure grace of God.
Again, the saints believe because they were first elected to the grace necessary to believe.
| 2008/7/30 21:41||Profile|
| Re: The whosoever that believeth|
God does the calling and the choosing. He knows
whosoever will believe and He gives revelation
of the truth that brings salvation. Salvation
is His mercy and His work on the cross through
the sacrifice of His Only Son.
Martin G. Smith
| 2008/7/30 22:02||Profile|
So are you saying that it is God who makes a person believe and another one who cant believe, He decides not to make Him believe?
What then causes God to Elect some before the foundation of the world to be the whosoever that believeth and others He just over looks?
The bible says he so loved the world and does not clarify that there are some who do not have a choice to be one of His elect.
I am more of the belief that God in His foreknowledge saw who would believe and from this knowledge He elected them to eternal life.
This would make man responsible to His creator which I believe the bible teaches.
The scripture says as you stated (none would repent and believe unless they did not first receive the "drawing" of the Father) but the Holy Spirit is sent into the world to convict us. I believe the convicting power of the Holy Spirit upon a person is God giving the ability to respond. God gives to every man the measure of faith.
This would make man responsible to obey as well as God being responsible to keep His elect.
| 2008/7/30 22:57||Profile|
What I am saying is election is God's choosing;
and salvation is God's gift and God's work upon
the cross for whosoever will believe!! I agree
with your views of foreknowledge because God is
Omniscient (all_knowing). God's gift of grace
is made available for all men but it must be
received by faith!! God has not overlooked any
provision for our salvation.
Martin G. Smith
| 2008/7/31 11:01||Profile|
Another reason of concern is to those who are strong advocates of election without any free will of the individual is the damage I think it can cause to people.
We are all going to experience troubles and trials in this life. Lets say a person is struggling in his life and he knows he is not living a Christian life. He hears a teaching that some are the elect of God by Gods choice and some are not by Gods choice. This thought comes to his mind, Im probably the one God didnt elect, and how will I ever know for sure, if there are some He didnt want to elect.
I believe everyone has the opportunity to be the elect. I know I am one of the elect because I have been bought with a price and the Spirit of Christ abides in me.
I never witness to anyone, (no matter how great they have sinned), wondering that there could be a possibility that they are not elected. I believe everybody can be saved if they will believe in Jesus Christ.
This is why I believe that Gods foreknowledge was in the knowing who would believe in his Son, and not in the choosing some and not choosing others to believe.
This would place the predestination to be in His plan before the foundation of the world, to elect all those who truly believe in His Son and His foreknowledge of those who would, He elected them according to His Plan before the foundation of the world.
God is still sovereign over all his creation but I dont believe He wants me to think that there are humans going to Hell for eternity because He never loved them and that Jesus didnt die for them.
I like this phrase We cannot without God and He will not without us because He has given us the part to believe but He has given us the ability to do so and He gets all the credit and glory.
Blessings to all! -rbanks
| 2008/7/31 11:14||Profile|
There is a picture that goes something like this
we are all traveling down a road, everyone is walking on it, as we walk forward we see a door on the side, it has a sign over it that says "anyone may enter"
most people pass by, but some do enter in, as they have entered and look behind them over the door, they see a sign that says "you where chosen before time"
so many try explain it, but it is one of the mysteries, i havent found anyone who can yet explain it fully, many try hard, but mostly violate a bunch of scripture to prove the doctrine right.
Zac Poonen told a illustration about how much higher God and his purposes are above us men. He likened it to try teach a dog something. You can teach it much, even to count one, two , three and other amazing tricks.
but try teach a dog multiplication or something that takes deep thinking and intelligence. You will fail.
Then you tell me, between who are the greatest distance?
God - man
man - dog
of course God is far far beyond all of us, and those who claim they have figured it out i am concerned about. There are some more of these in the bible :-)
hard things to understand, but i think the best thing is to say "i dont know"
God knows, that is enough. I know it makes no difference in the walk with the Lord, to quote Ravenhill, to overload your head with theology wont make you pray.
Its a matter of intimacy with God.
we need to know the doctrines of the bible, we need to know what it says and study it carefully and much.
But we need se to it that our study gives us life.
if all we have is knowledge and doctrine, even if you are one of those who can figure out calvins reasoning and teachings you better see to it that it produce life in you. as with the other Arminians, or whatever.
The truth will set you free the bible says, some use freedom as a opportunity for the flesh, but those who know better and read the scripture in its context see it is freedom from sin.
so no matter the doctrine, if it has not freed you from sin, its a deception.
the measure stick is that, if it sets you free from sin its the truth, and transforming you more and more into HIS image , if you look back and judge your life and see a steady growth in holiness and Christlike and a greater hatred for sin and a love for righteousness, makes you love GOD more and all men.
you stick to that doctrine
a man gave me an advice, i asked how we can know and protect ourselves from all this deception and extremes out there in these last days.
It was a good advice i think, he said to me "read,read,read the gospels, study the life of Jesus. If you follow him you will do fine at the judgment seat"
That is the one point of mine so despised by my Calvin brethren :-P
point 1. Jesus Christ
God bless you all and keep you in the persuit of HIM and the freedom there is in HIM.
| 2008/7/31 13:22||Profile|
Thanks hmmhmm for your very honest post. I really enjoyed reading it.
It has been well said "that life does not come out of doctrine but true doctrine is to come out of life".
| 2008/7/31 14:22||Profile|
rbanks, your concerns and objections are honest and fair. Many of them were my own. I am persuaded that my disagreements with God's electing according to grace, and not foreseen willingness, were owing to misunderstandings and preconceptions. For the most part I think these were more rooted in my natural philosophy, than in scripture.
This article by A. W. Pink more or less "sealed the deal" in my transformed view:
[url=http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/pink_sov_04.html]Pink - The Sovereignty of God in Man's Salvation[/url]
I commend it to you and those who have yet to see the glory of God in the unconditional election of souls according to grace.
| 2008/7/31 15:58||Profile|
How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Good News.
by Marc Jacobs.
Matthew 8:18 20 When Jesus noticed how large the crowd was growing, he instructed his disciples to cross to the other side of the lake. Then one of the teachers of religious law said to him, Teacher, I will follow you no matter where you go!. But Jesus said, Foxes have dens to live in, and birds have nests, but I, the Son of Man, have no home of my own, not even a place to lay my head.
Beautiful, simply beautiful and such power and faith, she could not handle it anymore, she had lost the one she loved the one that had changed her life. He took her from the place where she had been, in her mind and in her heart she had believed the lies that were told of her and that where told to her. She was struggling with fear; she knew that fear did not come from God, but fear non-the-less she struggled with. She thought to her self, it is easier way easier to stay where I am at, then to confront, to face the word spoken over my life, and the vision that came with it. Mary, thought as long as I can sit here at the feet of the prophet, and listen to his teaching, and become like a sponge, this is all I need, and I can deposit this into others.
Mary struggled with the bigger picture, that her sins had been forgiven, no longer was she who she used to be, she was a new creation, the former things had past away, behold I due a new thing. Mary held on to those words that had been spoken over her life and placed them on a shelf. She en listed herself instead in a University to study Law. She told herself she was going to be an attorney, and defend the cause of others, she was going to speak on there behalf. She knew that they could not represent themselves in front of a judge; she didnt know the logistics, the terminology if you will. But, she purposed in her own heart that she would learn, and speak in front of multitudes, and learn she did. Four years she attended the University of Pennsylvania, and received her degree in Law, but she was still not content, she decided to en list her self in the University of Pittsburgh, and study to obtain her masters. Two years had now past by, but she was still not content, the overwhelming frustration that was coming upon her heart was most unbearable to herself -- Clients were calling her sending her e-mails offering her a lot of money to re-present them. She found herself with so many offers, and still she was not content, there was more, there was something more that she had to do, before she could accept there offer. She had to obtain her Doctorate degree. Mary decided that she would continue with the same major -- Law, since it had been her hearts desire, since God placed it there.
Mary, remembered the many times that she sat at the feet of the prophet,, to listen to his teachings, and to laugh at his jokes. This was not going to be easy for her. Now in order to obtain her Doctorates in Law, she had to write a Thesis, a book.
During her devotional time.
During her devotional time with God, as she studied, he spoke to her and told her to keep her calendar next to her, because as she began to write her Thesis her calendar would begin to fill up with numerous appointments, more then she could possibly imagine, but this would only come, during her devotional time as she wrote her Thesis.
Title (s) began to come to her mind, one after the other, she could hardly keep up. Mary began to walk with a tape recorder in her hand because she could not believe all of the offers and all of the people that needed her to re-present them in court.
Here, as the story goes we find Mary walking towards the tomb, with such high hopes that she would rescue the body of her beloved Jesus, only to find that the tomb was empty, he had risen is what she was told by the angels, he had risen.
What Mary could not see, though she thought she had arrived, was that there, was a Resurrection. Jesus did not lie to her. One the third day he arose.
In here today, to tell you;
Embrace every word spoken over your life feel its desire to live within you.
I wonder what the Title of Marys book will be, and where will it be published and who will endorse it?
HOW MANY OF YOU FIND THIS BY MARC JACOBS BORING AND INSIFNIGIFICANT?
| 2008/7/31 17:38||Profile|