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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Just what exactly is the "Book of Enoch"

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BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Titus 1:12

we start questioning the completeness of the canon which has been accepted for thousands of years, where will it stop?

The canon is complete.


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/7/31 21:45Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

also Acts 17:28

Who wrote the book of Enoch?
When was it written?
There is no evidence such a book even existed at Jude's time (the earliest ms is dated to 4th century, and nothing else suggests it existed earlier), Jude never mentioned a "book of Enoch" or that he was even quoting from anything.

Even assuming that there was such a thing and that Jude [i]did[/i] quote it, he says nothing about it being inspired, and as far as I know, no church father thought such a thing either.


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/7/31 22:11Profile
Miccah
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Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Guys, I'm not trying to start something, and my choice of words could have been better. I stated something to the effect of "when did the book leave the Bible"... this statement by me was wrong and inaccurate. I appologize for any confussion it may have lead to.

I was trying to get a feel for the book of Enoch, hence the questions before about a non-biased pro or con article on Enoch. Just looking for straight facts, if there are any.

Thanks again for the time to share :-)


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Christiaan

 2008/7/31 23:38Profile
Koheleth
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Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re: Just what exactly is the "Book of Enoch"

Quote:
Even assuming that there was such a thing and that Jude did quote it, he says nothing about it being inspired, and as far as I know, no church father thought such a thing either.



I think we should try to be objective in our analysis of Enoch. When Isaiah was quoted from, no one stated that was inspired either. Perhaps we might say such points are assumed. Also, earlier in this thread there are links that point out that some early church fathers received the book of Enoch as Scripture. If Jude references a quotation from Enoch, it obviously exists prior to the 4th century. However, I do not think the book of Enoch should become a controversy. If the book of Enoch contains anti-Christian errors, let us expose them, otherwise it may well be compatible with Scripture. Perhaps the reading of it will be at least as good as many of the other books recommended on this forum. There are fine, balanced, and conservative men of God in our own day who believe the book of Enoch to be inspired. My point is not to say that it is, but to ask if we need to battle over whether it is or not. "Let each person be fully convinced in his own mind" Paul says, as long as there is nothing in it that will harm Christ.

 2008/8/1 9:10Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Quote:
When Isaiah was quoted from, no one stated that was inspired either



When Isaiah is quoted from, it is usually plainly treated as inspired (tought from, etc.) and has always been considered so dating thousands of years back to our Jewish ancestors. Several criteria had to be met for our fathers to consider something scripture, and "Book of Enoch" never fit the bill. Sure, there have been a few to dissent, but Luther thought James wasn't scripture either. A few people in late history can't negate thousands of years of acceptance. If it does, it better be pretty strong evidence and there better be proof of a huge gaffe or conspiracy on the part of our Fathers to reject or "remove" this work. Furthermore, as I've already pointed out, quoting something does nothing to make it inspired, since Paul quoted true statements from non-inspired sources. Why don't we treat those pagan sources as scripture, while we're at it? This reference from Jude (NOT necessarily a quotation) is just a statement of agreement or fact. Nothing else is mentioned on whether Jude considered anything else from this "source" inspired.

Quote:
If Jude references a quotation from Enoch, it obviously exists prior to the 4th century.



Correlation does not infer causation. How do you know that the "Book of Enoch" didn't quote Jude to give credence to it?

Quote:
"Let each person be fully convinced in his own mind"



I don't think Paul was talking about adding to scripture.

I have no problem if people want to read this book. But if it goes beyond, "hmm, this is interesting" into considering it equal with scripture, we move into dangerous territory.



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Denver McDaniel

 2008/8/1 10:13Profile
Koheleth
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Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re: Just what exactly is the "Book of Enoch"

Quote:
Correlation does not infer causation. How do you know that the "Book of Enoch" didn't quote Jude to give credence to it?



A perfectly valid and logical question, of course. We need to ask ourselves what source Jude quoted from. Naturally, we could say that God just revealed those words to him and indicated they were spoken by Enoch. However, I think the record of the early church fathers indicates that this was not a new work. They treat it as a text that was written before Christ, being part of the Jewish and not the Christian era (pre-Christ).

 2008/8/2 22:32Profile





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