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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I still have not seen where you have scripturally proven your point. I would be interested to know your SCRIPTURAL point of view, and not the historical point of view.


Friend, I have not seen you prove tongues as the uniform initial by scripture either; I have seen you infer evidence where the Spirit is silent, and this is not proof. There is no conclusive, absolute teaching, otherwise the early church fathers would have been unanimous and we would not be debating it today. The truth is, scripture never presents tongues at Spirit Baptism as didactic, and God is conspicuously silent about tongues in more than one area in His Word where people are filled in the NT. I believe in the gift of tongues (I speak and pray in tongues), and I also believe that tongues can be a sign under the sovereign choosing of the holy Spirit, but I dare not legislate a doctrine [i]on how God must act[/i] based on inferential material taken from historical instances in Acts.

Scripture is blatantly inconclusive on this doctrine, this is obvious, and the fact of it is substantiated by church history which I further appeal to to make my point. In your case, church history repudiates your stance and only proves your error from which the scripures you appeal to never conclusively supported in the first place.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/7/26 22:35Profile
logan_trky
Member



Joined: 2006/9/14
Posts: 29


 Re:

I still see no scripture. I choose to make the Word of God the authority. This is just willful ignorance. Scripture plainly shows that one speaks in tongues when Baptized with the Spirit. Scripture shows tongues as the evidence 3 TIMES. That looks like a majority more than a minority. It seems that you look to the history of the church more than you do what the Word says. God is continuously shedding more light on his Scripture. The early church fathers were used by God mightily, but they were also walking in all the light they knew at that time. Many DID speak in tongues if you study church revival meetings in the seventeen and eighteen hundreds.

 2008/7/26 22:44Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re: Tongues

Quote:
I was wondering what everyones thoughts were about wether or not tongues still happen today or not.



I see lots of people using tongues. Too bad that most don't know how to control it.

I've learned that it's better to control the tongue I've got rather than seek to speak in other tongues.

(By the way, I say this while I also believe that God still gives this gift.)


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Josh Parsley

 2008/7/26 22:51Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
This is just willful ignorance. Scripture plainly shows that one speaks in tongues when Baptized with the Spirit. Scripture shows tongues as the evidence 3 TIMES. That looks like a majority more than a minority.


Friend, I didn't know a "3 time majority" was the determinant. At least now you're not saying someone spoke in tongues on each occasion like you did at the onset. There are some excellent teachings on the subject by Zac Poonen, Finney, Moody, Murray, Keith Daniel, Nee.
Quote:
This is just willful ignorance


This is a shameful assumption, for you do not know me, or how much I have meditated on this topic.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/7/26 22:56Profile
logan_trky
Member



Joined: 2006/9/14
Posts: 29


 Re:

Quote:
At least now you're not saying someone spoke in tongues on each occasion like you did at the onset.



Yes, I do believe that EVERY person did speak in tongues. Even if the Scripture does not say on those two incidents in Acts, the evidence IS there in other verses, so it doesn't have to say.


Quote:
This is just willful ignorance

That is shameful statement, for you do not know me, or how much I have studied this topic. I do not agree with your convictions, that is all.




This is not meant to sound harsh, but I think that this subject is very clear.


Quote:
There are some excellent teachings on the subject by Zac Poonen, Finney, Moody, Murray, Keith Daniel, Nee.



I'm not necessarily concerned with what these men say on the subject. This is definitely not to say that these men are not men of God. I am rather saying that I base my beliefs on the Word of God, not on what history or preachers tell me.

 2008/7/26 23:06Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I am rather saying that I base my beliefs on the Word of God, not on what history or preachers tell me.


I base mine as well from the Word of God, and I am convinced it doesn't conclusively put forth tongues as a doctrine that must always uniformly happen at Spirit Baptism. Unlike you, I have church history [i]and[/i] the Word of God to substantiate this, you have nothing but the inferential treatment of Scripture and personal experience to base your convictions upon - an experience, by the way, that I don't reject. I do reject, however, the Parham doctrine of uniform evidence both by what the Bible [i]doesn't say[/i] and what history [i]does say[/i].

What is so hard to understand about this? We know for a fact there have been men mightily used by God in the miraculous, the supernatural, explosive soul winning and manifestations unprecedented, men through whom the Holy Spirit perfomed manifold signs and wonders with all the evidences of a genuine Spirit-Baptized ministry and who never once spoke in a tongue, or wrote of speaking at tongues at their filling (yet they could all write of the day when they were Spirit-Baptized). Might this explain why Scripture is curiously silent in certain places...places where you are grasping at straws to make it fit a universal doctrine that was never delineated in scripture?


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/7/26 23:21Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Dear brother, there are weightier things at hand here, and God knew the controversy tongues would generate in the 20th century. I had a heart-to-heart with my Pastor earlier this year over this very topic (I relinquished my credentials back to the AG over this very thing, not to mention the doctrine on compulsory tithing and the ordination of female pastors). Tithing and consenting to tongues as the initial are non-negotiable tenants. I don't want to go back over it here; the poster of this thread inquired about tongues and he/she deserved to hear the other side of a challenge.

Thank you for this discussion, thank you for your grace and not going very heavy with the assumptions (you could have went heavier, and I thank you for personal restraint). These topics can really encite feelings, emotions, flesh. I think I'm finished here and I wish you a very profitable stay at SI.

The Lord bless you,

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2008/7/26 23:48Profile
logan_trky
Member



Joined: 2006/9/14
Posts: 29


 Re:

Bless you, Paul...I enjoyed the discussion as well.

 2008/7/27 0:08Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3537
Louisiana

 Re:

I found a very good bible study online that addresses many of these questions on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the many questions concerning tongues being the initial evidence.

Below is the website that the bible study is on, as well as a excerpt from the bible study.

In His Love,
Mike

http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/holy-spirit-baptism.htm


Evidences of Holy Spirit Baptism

In the book of Acts, the most common sign of Holy Spirit baptism was the expression of unknown tongues. "They were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4; also see Mark 16:17; Acts 10:44-48, 19:6). Why was the sign of tongues the most common evidence of Holy Spirit baptism? Well, probably because a person's tongue is the most unruly member of the body (see James 3:2-10), so when the tongue is brought under the inspiration and influence of the Holy Spirit, there can be no doubt that the whole person has been immersed in the Holy Spirit.

Some churches teach that speaking in tongues is the sole evidence of being filled with the Spirit, but this is not altogether true. The biblical examples indicate that in addition to tongues, evidences of being filled with the Spirit include prophecy (Luke 1:41, Acts 19:6), boldness (Acts 4:31), miraculous healings (Acts 5:15-16), spiritual songs (Ephesians 5:19), wisdom (Acts 6:3), faith (Acts 6:8), and joy (Acts 13:52). Tongues were the common sign, but it was not recorded in every instance (see Acts 8:15-17 and
9:17-19). Also, some believers received the Holy Spirit infilling after water baptism (see Acts 10:5-6); others received it before water baptism (see Acts 10:44-48). Man often likes to put God in a box and predict the move of God's Spirit with restrictive formulas, but the Holy Spirit works best with repentant, humble hearts that are yielded to Him and are willing to go with the flow. Like a heavenly wind, the Spirit comes and goes in perfect agreement with the will of the Father (see John 3:8).

Paul taught that the sign of tongues was meant for prayer and personal edification, for building up the Body of Christ, and as a sign to unbelievers (see I Corinthians 12:4-11, 14:4-5,22). Paul said, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all" and "Wherefore, brethren, covet [desire] to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues" (I Corinthians
14:18,39). Although tongues are beneficial, speaking in tongues should not be the focus of Holy Spirit baptism but rather fully yielding oneself in worship to Jesus. A language of the Spirit will often come spontaneously when the heart is so full of the Spirit that common words are insufficient for expression. "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8:26). The Old Testament prophet Jeremiah experienced this kind of fullness, like a fire within: "But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay" (Jeremiah 20:9). What did Jeremiah do? He prophesied with boldness to the people of Judah as the Spirit gave him the words to say.

The apostle Paul said that every member in the Body of Christ is necessary, and not all will speak in tongues. "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (I Corinthians 12:30). There are, in fact, nine gifts or manifestations of the Spirit and "diverse tongues" is just one of them. "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is
given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will" (I Corinthians 12:7-11). Each of these nine gifts is a different manifestation of the same Spirit.

Every believer has at least one spiritual gift, distributed by God as it pleases Him (I Corinthians 12:11). The gifts are given to edify the Body of Christ in love. "From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love"
(Ephesians 4:16). A believer must exercise faith in using his or her gift, because the gifts are initially undeveloped and must be exercised to grow and become fully mature over time. The goal, however, is not for us to be self-focused on our spiritual gifts, but to honor Jesus Christ and walk in His footsteps of humility and servanthood.

Conclusion

The oil of the Holy Spirit consecrates us and lights our spiritual lamps, while the fire of the Holy Spirit purges sin (a process called sanctification) and ignites a flame of passion (love for Jesus) in our hearts. As believers in Christ, we are responsible for keeping our vessels pure and the oil full like the five wise virgins in Jesus' parable (see Matthew 25:4) so that the light of Christ may shine brightly within us (see Matthew 5:14-16).

Those of you who have been filled with the Holy Spirit in the past but have let the oil run out of your spiritual lamps, we encourage you to go to the Lord and ask for a fresh infilling of the Spirit. The Bible says, "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip" (Hebrews 2:1). The Greek wording of this verse could be translated "lest at any time we should run out as leaking vessels."

You, dearly beloved ones in Christ, are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Your spiritual light is completely dependent upon the oil and flame of the Spirit of God. "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us" (II Corinthians 4:6-7).
This Christian Bible teaching was written by David Holt Boshart, Jr. and his wife Shari Boshart.


_________________
Mike

 2008/7/27 9:32Profile
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re: Tongues

I would say search the scriptures and see what it says. We all can be susceptible to others views. I would encourage you to seek what the Word of God says, pour and dive into the scriptures. The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth.

Blessings and grace,


:-)

 2008/7/27 16:54Profile





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