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tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 A look at Perseverance of the Saints


Perseverance of the Saints
by Michael R. Finney and Rolaant I. McKeneic

Perseverance of the Saints states that all who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.
Scriptural Support:
1 Samuel 2:9; Nehemiah 9:16-19; Psalm 31:23, 32:7,23,28-33, 38, 84:5-7, 89:30-33, 94:14, 97:10, 121:7, 125:1; Proverbs 2:8; Isaiah 40:30, 54:4-10; Jeremiah 32:38-42; Matthew 18:6, 12-14, 24:22-24; Luke 1:74, 22:32; John 3:36, 4:13, 5:24, 6:37-40, 51, 8:31, 10:4, 8, 27-29, 17:11, 15; Romans 6:1-4, 7:24-8:4, 28-39, 11:29, 14:14; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9, 3:15, 10:13; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5; Ephesians 1:11-14, 4:30; Philippians 1:6; Colossians 3:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 3:3-5; 2 Timothy 1:12, 4:18; Hebrews 3:14, 7:25, 10:14, 36-39, 13:5; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 2 Peter 3:8; 1 John 2:19, 3:9, 5:4, 13, 18; Jude 1, 24.

Perseverance of the Saints first needs to be properly understood. This doctrine does not mean that all those who merely appear to have faith (i.e., said a certain prayer, walked down the church isle, joined a church, were baptized, etc.) will be kept by God and will therefore persevere to the end. There are many people who profess to be believers but then later fall away. Instead, Perseverance of the Saints means that all those who have a genuine faith in Christ will be kept by God forever and will persevere to the end. There are many professing Christians who trust in their own works, goodness, merits for their salvation. These people are trusting in their own "righteousness, instead of Jesus' blood, and do not have true faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore, later on they may get discouraged and decide to leave the faith and no longer be a Christian. This does not prove that they were saved and then lost their salvation, but simply that they deserted the Christian religion because they had only a said faith rather than a genuine one. The Apostle John clearly described such people in 1 John 2:19. Speaking of some who had renounced the Christian religion and had become anti-Christ, he said, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." It is clear from this passage that those who profess faith in Christ and appear to be true believers, and yet later fall away, were never really a part of God's people in the first place.

Another important point that must be made is that the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints in no way permits believers to live a lazy and rebellious Christian life. Some opponents to this doctrine say that it teaches a license to sin with an open door to heaven. This is grossly untrue, and a complete distortion of what Perseverance of the Saints actually teaches. Jesus said in John 14:15, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Since the Christian is born again by the Holy Spirit, he loves Jesus and so naturally desires to keep His commandments. The change of heart that the Holy Spirit makes in regeneration, as well as the indwelling presence of the Spirit in the believer, ensures that the believer will continue to love Christ. Of course, the amount of love for Christ varies with the individual. A more mature Christian no doubt has a deeper love for Christ than a "baby Christian." Nevertheless, all of God's children have a love for their Savior. Thus, true believers strive each and every day to please Him. They strive each and every day to keep His commandments. This is not done in order to obtain salvation, or even to maintain salvation, because that would turn salvation by grace into salvation by works. Rather, Christians keep His commandments out of love and gratitude for the One who shed His precious blood for their redemption. Therefore, those who believe in Perseverance of the Saints do not say that Christians can live like any way they want and still expect to get into heaven. They say, "Do you really love Christ? Then keep His commandments!" Even though believers have a great love for the Lord, and strive to obey and please Him, human imperfection, the sinful flesh, causes a fall into sin from time to time. No one on earth is sinless. But God will keep His saints. He will see to it that all those He elected, died for, and regenerated will be glorified.

Here are several Scriptural passages that teach the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. Jesus said in John 6:39-40, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." Here we are told that the Father's will for the Son is that the Son lose none of those that were chosen and given to Him. So in order for an elect person to be lost, the Son would either have to disobey the Father's will, or be impotent in His power to prevent the loss of those given to Him by the Father! It would be a sin for the Son to disobey the Father's will; and if Jesus lacks the power to keep those whom the Father had given to Him, then perhaps He is also unable to make good the many other promises He made to believers. So the only way a believer could be lost is for the Son of God to sin or be powerless to keep them. Needless to say, that will never happen. In John 10:27-29 Jesus says about the elect sheep in verse 27, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;". Notice that it is the nature of sheep to follow the Divine Shepherd. If anyone fails to follow the Shepherd, that person was never really a sheep. In the verses 28-29 He continues, "And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." It is sometimes argued that although nothing can take a believer out of the Father's hand, a person might take himself out of the Father's hand. However, the verse does not say that the believer is holding tightly to the Father's hand. It says that the Father is holding tightly to the believer. To illustrate, whenever an earthy father is holding his child's hand while crossing a busy highway, he holds tightly onto the child's hand. Even if the child releases his grip the father does not release his. He does not leave the safety of the child up to the child. He does not merely hold out a stick and tell the child to hold on to the other end of it and just leave it up to the child's decision as to whether to let go and wander into traffic or not. In the same way, God is a good Father, and He holds us tightly in His hand. We will never be able to get loose from His grip and perish because He promises that we "will never perish". How could He make that promise if it were possible for us to get loose from His grip and perish? It is not possible. In John 17:24 Jesus said, "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." It is Christ's desire for the ones whom God has given Him to be with Him and behold His glory. Christ is the sovereign God. He will get what He desires. Romans 8:35-39 says:
"Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, 'FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.' But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Sometimes it is argued that Satan may be successful in separating the believer from God and His love. However, Satan is a created thing, and the promise is that no created thing will be successful in separating us. If Satan could separate a believer from God and cause him to be unsaved, then that would make Satan more powerful than God!

It is also argued from time to time that even though the believer is safe from adversaries outside of himself, he is not safe from destroying himself. However, it needs to be remembered that even the believer himself is a created thing, and the promise is that no created thing will ever separate us from God. Philippians 1:6 says, "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." God is not a God who fails to complete the tasks He begins. He is never defeated in anything He sets out to do. If He has really begun a good work in an individual, He will be successful in completing it. We can be confident of that. 1 Corinthians 1:8 says, "[Jesus Christ] will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 says, "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass." Here the Apostle Paul assures believers that God will preserve them in a blameless (justified) state. 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, "But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one."

Since it is God's will that the Son lose none of those that were given to Him, the believer can be sure that He will successfully guard him from the attempts of Satan to destroy him and separate him from God. 2 Timothy 1:12 says, "For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day."

Sometimes people say that God would definitely like to make our ultimate salvation a certainty but that He is not able to because that would interfere with our so-called free will. But the Bible teaches that He is able. Jude 24-25 reaffirms this when it says, "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." This passage does not teach that God is able to keep us from stumbling and stand blameless before Him if we continue to do our part, for then, salvation would be dependent on our own ability, our own efforts. No, it is God who keeps the believer from stumbling; it is God who makes him to stand before Him justified.

There are several doctrines which prove Perseverance of the Saints. One of them is Predestination. The Bible teaches that God predestines certain people to be saved. Ephesians 1:5 says that "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will " To be adopted as a son is to be saved. God also predestines us to be conformed to the image of Christ. Now, everyone whom God predestines to be saved and conformed to Christ's image will eventually be glorified in heaven. Romans 8:30 says that "these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." Here we see that predestination is an unbroken golden chain. Paul says that the ones who get predestined are the ones who get called. The ones who get called are the ones who get justified. The ones who get justified are the ones who get glorified. If you get the first part of salvation you get it all. It is an unbreakable chain. All those who get the first part of salvation get the last. All those whom God predestined to be saved will be glorified in the end. And how could it be otherwise? How could the Sovereign God predestine a thing to occur and it not occur? It is impossible!

Another doctrine that proves Perseverance of the Saints is Salvation by Grace. In Ephesians 2:8-9 Paul said, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Notice here that salvation is "the gift of God not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Some people believe that a believer can lose his salvation. They believe that that the only reason some people are able to keep their salvation and others fail to do so is because some are simply able to endure. Perhaps one person has more strength than another, or maybe he does not lose his determination, or perhaps he has some innate ability to remain in Christ that others do not have. One of the problems with this, however, is that this leaves room for boasting. Let's say Christ did die for both men, and the Spirit did regenerate both of them, but one went to heaven while the other did not. Why? Because he had the strength to endure. So when he gets to heaven, he will have a lot to boast about. He could boast about his ability to persevere, or for even being sensible enough to make the right choice in accepting Christ as his Savior.

According to Paul's understanding, however, there is no room for boasting at all. God chose us before the foundation of the world, not because of anything we did. Jesus Christ died on the cross, and His blood covered all our sins. Then the Spirit brought us out of our spiritual death and into life; and God is holding us in His hand and guarding us from the evil one. He is keeping us forever. Salvation is totally of God and His grace. Therefore, we have nothing to boast about, and we will give God all the praise and glory. The Biblical view gives God all the glory for his salvation. Those who hold to the opposing view is logically compelled to accept a part of the glory for himself. Surely any understanding of salvation which leaves room for man to boast and divides the glory for salvation between God and the sinner cannot be the biblical understanding of salvation.
Another thing which proves that the believer is eternally secure, is the fact that scripture says that our life is eternal. Consider John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." If there is any possibility that some who believe in Him will at some future time lose their salvation, then how could Christ have made this promise? He said they will have eternal life. If someone is promised eternal life but loses it after twenty years, did he have eternal life? No. That person only had 20-year life. Christ promises that all believers will have eternal life. For the Son of God to make such a promise, He must know that it will come to pass. If the Son of God makes a promise like that, He will do everything to make sure it occurs, including putting us in the Father's hand. And the Father is greater than all, so no one can snatch us out of His hand.

Another thing which proves the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints, is that when Christ died on the cross, He purchased the church. Acts 20:28 says, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." Jesus purchased those people for whom He died. The church is Jesus Christ's possession. We are His. How then can we ever belong to another? How then can we ever lose our salvation and not belong to Christ anymore? Who would ever succeed in taking something away from the Creator of heaven and earth unless that person was greater than God? No, believers are securely in God's hand, and we know that God does not plan for any believer to be lost.

Unfortunately, many quote Hebrews 6:4-6 and say that this passage disproves the doctrine of the believer's eternal security. The passage says:
"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."
In order to have a proper understanding of the teaching of Hebrews 6:4-6, it is necessary to study the context. In Hebrews 5:10, the Lord Jesus is referred to as "a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek." Continuing on in verses 11-14 it says, "Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil."
Then comes the exhortation of the opening verse of the sixth chapter, in which the writer calls upon his Hebrew brethren, who have not yet received Christ although they have come to a knowledge of Him, to declare themselves openly for Christ. The Old Testament was their elementary school, their kindergarten, the place of first things or principles. The time had now come for them to graduate. The law was their schoolmaster to lead them to Christ that they might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24). He writes now to them saying, "Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity [the same Greek word as is in the proceeding verse is translated "full age"], not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment." (Hebrews 6:1-2) All these are Old Testament doctrines. The apostle is exhorting the Hebrews to move forward to Christ, to whom all these doctrines pointed. "And this we will do, if God permits. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened [as the Hebrews had been] and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of [literally, companions, those who go along with] the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God [this had come to them through the ages by the prophets] and the powers of the age to come [these were the miracles they had witnessed], and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." (Hebrews 6:3-6)

The Hebrew recipients of this letter were probably convicted of the truth of the gospel message without actually fully accepting it. So in that case they would not be genuine believers. The writer of Hebrew's warning in this passage is similar to that of Hebrews 4:11. Hypocrites among the recipients of the gospel have heard the truth repeatedly without an appropriate response. If they proceeded in their plans to return to Judaism, it would be "impossible" for them to genuinely repent since their hearts would have become hardened. There is nothing in this passage which speaks of a born-again person losing his salvation. This passage teaches there is no salvation for anyone unless they are found under the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. If this passage was teaching that a true believer could loose his salvation, then it also would be teaching that once someone has been saved, then lost, he cannot be re-saved. This would counter the idea some Christians hold that one could fall away, and repent later and return to Christ to be saved. Those who "fall away" are like the people the apostle John spoke about in 1 John 2:19:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

One can come to the presence of God in apparent repentance without ever having a genuine fellowship with Him. (Luke 8:13, 13:27) Even Pharaoh repented for a season. But his returning to rebellion against God showed that his repentance was not genuine. (Exodus 9:27, 10:16-17) But of those who truly come to Christ in faith and are born again, the Apostle Peter says:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

"After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you." (1 Peter 5:10)
We truly are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, for it is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast. We have no reason to boast about anything. Not even for making a decision for Christ. We serve a gracious and merciful God who chose us before the foundation of the world; who shed His precious blood which covered our sins; who changed our hearts so that we would willingly serve Him for all of eternity; who gave us the faith we need; and who holds us in His hand now and forever. To Him be all glory and praise forever and ever!


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TJ

 2008/7/19 13:09Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re: A look at Perseverance of the Saints

repentance, faith, resurrection, eternal judgment are [only] Old Testament doctrines?!? I must have the wrong Bible.


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Denver McDaniel

 2008/7/19 13:15Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
repentance, faith, resurrection, eternal judgment are [only] Old Testament doctrines?!? I must have the wrong Bible.



The word "only" is not in the article I posted nor is it implied that they are exclusively Old Testament doctrines. Perhaps your Bible is fine and it is the wrong article you have. :-)


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TJ

 2008/7/19 14:13Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Some things to consider about a person who may or may not be saved:

Let’s say a person who believes they have accepted the Lord as their savior and they believe they are saved is told “once saved always saved” or that they have eternal security and they can never loose their salvation. Let’s say this person holds to this and is so convince of this that it becomes embedded in their heart and they believe in “once saved always saved” even more so than the warnings of Jesus and his word about perseverance unto the end. Let’s suppose they don’t persevere like the bible says and when they die they go to hell thinking they were saved, and so the people who hold to this doctrine just say well they wasn’t really saved in the begin with. This is the reason Jesus never said “once saved always saved” because He was always teaching us not to be deceived and would not advocate any doctrine of man that could cause a person to be deceived because Jesus does not want us who believe in Him to be deceived.

Let’s say another person who believes they have accepted the Lord as their savior and they believe they are saved but are told what the bible says, that they are to give all diligence to make their calling and election sure for if they do these things they shall never fall. They are also told that Jesus will never leave them neither forsake them as they follow Him. They are told to put their trust in Him because in Him is eternal security and that He will never let anyone take them away from Him. He will never change His mind or heart about their eternal future with Him. He will give them all the grace they need to overcome everything in this life because His Love toward them is everlasting, only they are to persevere with their faith in Him. It is not by works but it is by grace through faith. Now let’s suppose they don’t continue to persevere and they die and go to hell because they were not saved in the beginning but they were not deceived into thinking that they were saved when they were not. I believe the percentage of people who are told “once saved always saved” that are not bearing the fruit of a Christian is more than we want to think about because it is a dangerous thing to believe in. It’s not having faith in this doctrine that saves a person anyway, it is only are faith in Christ who saves us.

If a person was not truly saved in the beginning but was told to make their calling and election sure, they are not being deceived, but while they are trying to do this, if they come up short, instead of believing in “once saved always saved” they realized that they may not be truly saved and humble themselves before the Lord and ask for mercy and repent and believe to be truly saved.

If a person is truly saved in the beginning he will have a fear of God to keep his commandments and will persevere unto the end because He is told to make His calling and election sure and he will have great joy because of the inner witness. He knows he is born of God and has an advocate to the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ who will cleanse Him from all sin by his precious blood as he walks in the Light.


We should maintain that a person is not saved by their righteousness or any amount of good works but only by grace through faith in the finish work of Jesus Christ. A person who is truly saved will have the witness of the Spirit, a fear of God, a love to keep his commands, and the grace to persevere to the end.

Finally a truly saved person will rest in the assurance of his salvation, but will take heed to the warnings in scripture and will be aware that He is to keep himself in the Love of God looking for the mercy of His Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life by building up himself on his most holy faith by continually praying in the Holy Spirit (Jude 20-21).




 2008/7/19 16:30Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Thanks for responding brother.

Quote:
We should maintain that a person is not saved by their righteousness or any amount of good works but only by grace through faith in the finish work of Jesus Christ.



Quote:
...He is to keep himself in the Love of God ...



I am not attempting to prove you right or wrong...just gain some understanding. Theses statements seem to be contradictory. If it is up to me to "keep myself" does it not give me something to boast about? In Heaven I would know I was there because "I kept myself".

Like I said I am not sure about all this but if there is even .00001% of me involved in maintaining my salvation…is that not something to boast about?

I cannot do anything to get saved…but I can do something to get unsaved?

First I must state again for the record I have not pitched a tent in either camp as of yet, although I was raised with the teaching that salvation can be lost.

One thing is that the historic doctrine of perseverance of the saints is far different from many of the perverted and twisted teachings of modern day once saved always saved.

I think it would be better to call it “If saved…always saved”

I see how this doctrine could be damaging if taught and or understood poorly but if it is true than it needs to be taught rightly so as to be understood correctly.

I am in search of the truth as God reveals it in scripture. I simply posted the article to get some dialog. Thanks for your time rbanks.


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TJ

 2008/7/19 17:24Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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 Re:

I have never understood how a person thinks they can loose their salvation, when it is not theirs to begin with. If I am saved by Grace, and can loose it, then Grace is not strong enough to keep me. If I am saved, it is impossible for me to loose it, for if I loose it I cannot come back into Grace, for I crucify again the Son of God and put Him to open shame. That is what Hebrews 6 is all about. If you or I are saved and have tasted of the things of Heb 6, it is impossible to loose it or I am putting Christ to open shame, and His sacrifice was not good enough to keep those that are born again by the Incorruptable Seed of God, which is Christ in you the hope of Glory.. If I can loose it, then we are calling God and abortionist. We are born of God and we cannot loose that birthright. To be truly a son of God we must have a Father. How can we loose that which is not of our own choosing, my mother and father did not consult with me to see if I wanted to be born, that was in the hands of God, just like my being born again was not in my hands, for God did not consult with me to see if I wanted to be "born again". He did by His own will and by Grace through Faith, lest Grace is dependent on whether I agree with God to be "born again".

It is a much better Gospel to depend on if we are seated in the final Gospel of Paul which Jesus Christ Gave him personally, than to be seated in a salvation gospel that can be lost. Where are we seated already?

It depends on God and has always depended on God, He will never change just so men can loose their own salvation, which is a true statement, the ones that think they can loose their salvation are dependent on self and Not the Unchangeable God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ that He would birth His own Son in the believer whom He has given the Faith to even believe in the first place, by the Cross of Christ and then allow men to loose it. It does not depend on men, It only depends on God. His Word, which is Christ, will not return void.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

1 Peter 1:18-25 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

He came to set the captives free. John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/7/20 20:51Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
tjservant wrote:

Like I said I am not sure about all this but if there is even .00001% of me involved in maintaining my salvation…is that not something to boast about?

Obediance is nothing to boast about.
[b]Luk 17:7[/b] [color=990000]But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to eat?
[b]:8[/b] And will not rather say unto him, Make ready that I may eat, and gird yourself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward you shall eat and drink?
[b]:9[/b] Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not.
[b]:10[/b] So likewise you, when you shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.[/color]

Quote:
I cannot do anything to get saved…but I can do something to get unsaved?

You must do somthing!!!
You must obey the command, Repent and put your faith on/in Christ and what HE said and did."

Quote:
I think it would be better to call it “If saved…always saved”

More like, "saved and not get decieved."

Many may recieve eternal life, then go into false doctrines(TBN crowd) and take on "another gosple"

 2008/7/20 21:15Profile









 Re: repentance & faith

Both repentance and faith are the gift of God.

It is said of Judas that he repented. But such repentance was not a God-wrought repentance. There is a godly sorrow(repentance)and a worldly sorrow(repentance). There is the difference between a Judas and a Peter.

It is also recorded that Simon Magus 'believed' and was even baptized. Such 'believing' or 'faith' of Simon Magus was not unto salvation as it was not the 'faith of God's elect'.

Just as in the parable Jesus told of the sower and the seed,it is recorded that some 'believe for a while'. Again, such 'believing' is not unto eternal life which is that salvation which is of the LORD.

1 Jn 5:1 Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been generated from God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves the one who has been born of Him.

The Greek term "begotten" is in the perfect tense, referring to an action begun in the past with continuing results in the present. The perfect tense is often rendered in the King James Version by the English present tense. What John is saying is that the person believing that Jesus is the Christ has been and continues to be begotten of God. George Ricker Berry’s classic work, Interlinear Literal Translation of the Greek New Testament (reprint Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1958), renders this verse, "Everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ, of God has been begotten." This passage does not teach that the person believing that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God as the result of believing; rather it teaches that the person believing on Jesus has already been begotten of God, which is the consistent teaching of the Bible. Regeneration is indispensable to faith; the unregenerate sinner can neither see nor enter the kingdom of God by faith apart from the new birth (Jn. 3:3, 5).

Regeneration reverses the sinner’s natural blindness, enabling him to understand his need of a Savior and put his faith in Jesus Christ.

John categorically declares that regeneration is of God alone. Man plays no part at all in regeneration. God alone, through His Holy Spirit, is the agent of regeneration. This fact is humbling to human pride; as a result, this teaching is repugnant to the unconverted man whose eyes have not been supernaturally opened to the truth of God’s Word.

John writes that they that believe on Christ were born of God (Jn. 1:13); he does not write that they that believe in Christ are on the basis of that faith born of God. In other words, being born again results in faith; faith does not result in the new birth. Faith is not the precondition but the result of the new birth. This is the consistent teaching of the Scriptures.

James fully concurs,"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas. 1:18). The expression is intensive: it is of God’s own will, not of the will of man or the shared will of man and God together, that the spiritually-dead person is begotten of God.

"The Divine Begetting is the antecedent, not the consequent of the believing"(Law).

The uniform message of the Bible is that man is entirely passive in regeneration. This truth drives men to their knees to plead on behalf of their loved ones who are without hope and without God in this world, if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; for the Bible believer realizes that it is utterly impossible for any person to be saved without the intervening power of Almighty God.(Stephen P.)

 2008/7/21 0:31
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

Ro 5:17 For if by the offence of the one death reigned by the one, much rather shall those who receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness, reign in life by the one Jesus Christ:)
Eph 2:8 For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:
Eph 3:7 of which I am become minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me, according to the working of his power.
Eph 4:7 But to each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ.

Not only these gifts and grace, but gifts, including; wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. It is all of God. He was made these thing for us, to us and in us.

We have as Spirit that is Incorruptable, the Spirit of Christ is now our Spirit. We have a soul where the Holy Spirit works to make our minds understand this great mystery of Christ in you the hope of Glory. I don't need teaching in my spirit, that is perfect before God because of Jesus Christs' Spirit birthed in us. Where I can turn away from God is in my soul, That is where I need to work to become conformed to Spirit of Christ that is already birthed in me. The soul-mind is where I learn to love Jesus Christ and the Father as they loved eachother and are One with each other. Where do we fall in love, not in spirit but in sou-mind, that is where we make or break our gift of salvation which we cannot loose. The mind must be kept on Him and He will keep us in perfect peace. We must learn the Mind of Christ by the Holy Spirit to be conformed to His image, and we do have the Mind of Christ and need to renew our minds-soul to His mind, then we will be perfect even as He is perfect, which the Father tells us to do. Only One thing left to become perfect, the fleshly body on resurrection morning we will be completely conformed to the image and body of Christ.

In Christ: PHillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/7/21 4:41Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
I have never understood how a person thinks they can loose their salvation, when it is not theirs to begin with.

What you just said is equivalent to saying that your marriage is not yours to begin with.

Why wouldn't you claim the relationship with Christ(eternal life) which you received?

Quote:
If I am saved by Grace, and can loose it, then Grace is not strong enough to keep me.

Can't loose it like a set of car keys, however, one may walk away from Christ, departing from the faith.

Quote:
If I am saved, it is impossible for me to loose it, for if I loose it I cannot come back into Grace, for I crucify again the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

You wouldn't want to anyway!

If you actually read the Scriptures with out conforming them to your own purpose, you would interpret them correctly.

Those who fall away bears thorns and briars is worthless, and is near unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
They can not bear good fruit because they are not abiding in Christ(Hebrews 6:8).
As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in Christ(John 15:4)

Quote:
That is what Hebrews 6 is all about

Read the chapter again. This time, leave your theology out of it.

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you.

What better things are they persuaded of?
That they will not fall away.

Hebrews 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

Hebrews 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise

Quote:
If you or I are saved and have tasted of the things of Heb 6, it is impossible to loose it

That's not what it says, why do you always twist the scriptures or your own benefit?
It says that it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance(.v 4-6), not impossible to loose it.

Quote:
or I am putting Christ to open shame, and His sacrifice was not good enough to keep those that are born again by the Incorruptible Seed of God, which is Christ in you the hope of Glory.

It ain't that His sacrifice was not good enough, but that they may have loved darkness more than the Light.
Or they may have been deceived into another gospel which denies the cross or distorts the person of Christ.

Quote:
If I can loose it, they we are calling God and abortionist

No, we are calling those who fall way, "unfaithful", Disobedient&", "shipwreck"...ect...

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We are born of God and we cannot loose that birthright.

Born of God is only one analogy for eternal life, adoption is also, then there is "redeemed", "delivered" ...ect...
However, Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright(Hebrews 12:16)

Quote:
To be truly a son of God we must have a Father. How can we loose that which is not of our own choosing, my mother and father did not consult with me to see if I wanted to be born

And all those children who disown their parents who will take nothing from their inheritance.

Quote:
that was in the hands of God, just like my being born again was not in my hands, for God did not consult with me to see if I wanted to be born again;. He did by His own will and by Grace through Faith, lest Grace is dependent on whether I agree with God to be "born again".

As He consulted the man on his bed at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches, do you want to be healed?(John 5:2,6)
Then He says to abide in Him, endure to the end...ect...

Quote:
It is a much better Gospel to depend on if we are seated in the final Gospel of Paul which Jesus Christ Gave him personally, than to be seated in a salvation gospel that can be lost.

Yah, so you may not need to think of how they might be deceived into another gospel, loving Benny Hinn & Kenneth Copland, Morris Cerilo(And the whole TBN crowed)
They need not to think of obedience to the faith.
They need not to think of dividing to Word of God correctly
They need not to think of warning and correcting the brethren, but only encourage them even when they are in error.
...ect...

Quote:
It depends on God and has always depended on God, He will never change just so men can loose their own salvation, which is a true statement, the ones that think they can loose their salvation are dependent on self and Not the Unchangeable God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

We depend on Christ, which is the Prince who leads us in our walk to completion and who is the very One who will complete our salvation by the glorification of our bodies.
(Hebrews 12:2, Romans 8:23)

We depend on Christ who forgave us and continues to make intercession for us with our failures.

We depend on Christ to teach us to walk in the spirit so we do not fulfill the lust of our flesh.

We depend on Christ & His Spirit to obey the spirit of the law, which is love.

Quote:
that He would birth His own Son in the believer

There you go again with your cultic, new age theology.
Christ was not "birthed", born again in us!!!!
We are born again in Him.

Quote:
whom He has given the Faith to even believe in the first place.

In contrast to those whom He will not "give" the faith to, so that they remain faithless.

Quote:
It does not depend on men, It only depends on God.

The salvation you speak of is not a loving two way relationship between Christ and His creation, but a dominating tyrannical all controlling entity, who does not care about what his creation does or thinks.

 2008/7/21 12:19Profile





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