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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Denouncement

Quote:
I have listened to the sermon "The Gift of Faith" by Todd Bentley and have in fact known of many of these stories for about three years now.



And you would still come and in essence defend the man? It's not a pointed question brother, honestly, but I am having a great deal of difficulty with this whole matter.

Quote:
I am not an advocate of punching people in prayer or harming people in the name of faith. Do I believe that the Lord sometimes asks us to do strange things as an act of faith when praying for others.



Why couple these together? It is yet anothera "but" and 'strange' things is now becoming all encompassing, like kicking an older woman in the face with your biker boot.

Those things you list, those things the scripture states are in no way near .. I cannot believe this needs to be even put to discussion or that I would even attempt it ...

Quote:
I do have to ask, however . . . the pictures of individuals, christians, and past revivalists that are kept on this site - I'm assuming that the moderator's and such are in support of these men and women.




That is an assumption and not entirely inaccurate. Support is something altogether different. I know where you are going with this so ...

Quote:
Are you aware, that there are images of Smith Wigglesworth, his birth place, his grave etc... on this site? Are you also aware that Smith Wigglesworth was also well known for employing violent methods in prayer? It is well known and documented that he punched a man in the stomach who was suffering with stomach cancer.



Yes, I am aware of this. What is your point? There is something a bit disingenuous despite what you stated at the start with this. There are a multitude of variables that make drawing comparisons between Wigglesworth and Bentely practically impossible. I don't like this at all ...

Rather than facing the facts of the matter you would turn this into a very bad comparison. Rather than respond to the two threads where the link to the man's own words are plainly displayed and not refute them out of hand ... Do we need to add in [i]all[/i] the content from all the threads and postings? All the spurious things, the laughter and the demonic possession shown as ... what? "God's 'new thing'? Where does it end? Another ten postings of his own words and notions, readily available as source material? Shall I go on?

What is uncanny and unbelievable to me is that you have been here for some time brother and shared many things with us all ... what has happened, what has you equivocating and drawing comparisons and in essence downplaying such outrageous and incredible things, [i]even if they are but lies and exaggerations[/i]? This kicking a woman, a [u]woman[/u], an [i]elderly woman[/i] ... in ... the ... [i]face[/i]. With his "Biker boot". It's ridiculous to try and string it out, if I put it in [b]bold[/b] letters would it make any difference at all? Does it need to become as absurd in the retelling of it to take note of the cruel crassness of it? Is the church a bar now, where the alcohol imparied tell tale tales or should we just chalk it up to being 'drunk in the spirit' and therefore can dispatch it, "He was kinda buzzed that night ..." Should we go to scripture and rehash a thousand pages to denounce the obvious ... ?

Quote:
It is also documented that he once kicked a baby back three rows of pews in a meeting. He is also known as picking a corpse up out of the coffin and slamming it against the wall three different times. These are just the more well-known accounts, but there are more.



"Documented"? Never heard of this one but the outrage would be the same if it was so ... a baby ...

Not everything on this site is "supported" as you put it, it is there and we are here, open to discuss whatever might be. If it needs to be said I find Wigglesorth an enigmatic and have stated as much in the past, have no reason to defend him nor would I. To get bogged down into a comparison in this manner would be folly. One is behind us, the other is before us and you can blame the blessed\cursed technology for making things even more exacting than what is reported or written or even "documented". It is right before our own eyes from the mans own lips.

This is the height of audacity and blasphemy to be stating that 'god' told him to kick a woman in the face. That this so difficult to grasp, that this is not enough all on it's own to put every mile of distance to even the notion of considering anything this man says or does, to not throw the whole thing on to the rubbish pile ...

Why didn't the media pick up on this? Where is the ACLU?

Where are the Christians?

Why is the best that can be said from the silence that ensued after it posted from you and others is only;

Quote:
... I am not saying this in support of what Todd Bentley has done.



That's it? Why do I get this sense of "Well, you know ..." that fading off to nowhere reply not just here but in general. That people actually are laughing about this and not outraged, nor have the guts to confront the man because he supposedly is the center piece of this so called 'revival'? Are we pleasing men?

This is what cults are made of.

Just in case this is being picked up by those who have not been exposed to it, watch for yourself;

[url=http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?cat=15]Todd Bentley’s Strange “Revival” Continues[/url]

Have gone to great lengths, even hyperbole in the sense of pressing the point to it's breaking point and fully recognize why I am doing so. It is not just this particular incident, it is a symptom of the greater problem. That the sheep are being deluded and as Ginny put it, are being or have become [i]desensitized[/i] to such an incredible degree that something like this can even be given a pass. Why? Because the real likelihood is that it never happened? Then he is lying, boldly, even happily all in the Name of the Lord, no, even worse, he is giving credit to his '[i]gift of faith[/i]' and that the [i]Lord[/i] told him to do it! This isn't 'strange' at all, it is demonic as is so completely evident from his bobbing head doll with accompanying silly grin antics at the end of the clip. The man is possessed and would have you all "come and get some".

We should be in mourning over what is happening to the church of Jesus Christ in this hour and yet ... there is equivocating. I fear for you brother and I fear for others, would to God I could just throw up my arms and say "Well, you know ...". "It's just those silly ______". The ramifications, the sheep, the unbelievers ... the testimony of Jesus. The world is watching.

Dear Brethren, I beseech you ... run.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1724]Run For Your Life [/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/7/20 0:24Profile
davyman
Member



Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83


 Re:

When I saw this thread, I thought "great, yet another Todd Bentley thread." So, I finally decided to do some research.

I've scoured web site after web site and cannot find one instance where this man has either preached or acknowledged the gospel of the Cross. Therefore, this circus act cannot be called revival. At best, it is Finneyesque hucksterism.

Bentley neither calls for nor exhibits true Christian humility. Every preacher of true revival has been a humble servant of Christ. From the reformation to the Welsh Revival, all the great heroes of the faith have displayed humility in the face of God's gracious outpourings. Bentley boasts of kicking old women in the face, smashing legs and running people over. He speaks of diamond and gold falling from heaven (BTW, why doesn't he use that to fund his "revival" rather than asking for money?). Says Todd, in his scripture twisting way, "You see, I want to be fruitful; I want to be far above. I want to be a conqueror; I want to be a mountain of strength; I want to be greatness. You know, we like that word greatness. Well, he who dwells in the secret place of the Most High automatically comes into everything that the Almighty is. It happens." Todd wants to be God! At least the word of faith guys say "we are LITTLE gods." Seems to me the Scriptures speak of another that wanted the same thing (as the church lady says) could it be . . . Satan?

This is the third in a long series of "revivals" to come. At least Pensecola had some Gospel preaching. This is Satan's greatest enticement of this age. Our race is always seeking ways to feel good. I fell into this trap during the "Toronto Outpouring," but God in His mercy graciously brought me out of it. I pray for the Christians who attend these meetings, may God guide them to the truth, in spite of Satan and his tool, Todd Bently.


 2008/7/20 9:34Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
At best, it is Finneyesque hucksterism.


Brother, to be truthful, I really don't understand the association between Charles Finney and this Lakeland thing. The two are completely night and day, and your hasty analogy, I dare say demonstrates that you might not fully undertand what kind of a man Finney was, what he preached, or the fruit of God resulting from his conversions and ministry.

Disagree with Finney's theology if you wish (I don't completely agree with some of Finney's views myself), but I feel it is far beneath us to make such crude a comparison between Lakeland and Oberlin.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/7/20 10:04Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
First, demons are nonsexual beings. As a unique category of non-material beings, they are incapable of having sexual relationships with corporeal sexual beings, producing biological offspring. As Dr. J. Sidlow Baxter put it, Let us be frank and explicit. The angels are bodiless, purely spiritual beings, and sexless. Being bodiless and sexless means that they are without sex organs, and that they are therefore absolutely incapable of sensuous experiences or sexual processes; nor are they capable of procreation or reproduction in any way whatever.



There is no way to substantiate this statement at all because we do not know the extent of the powers of the angelic host; we only know that they are greater in power and might than we are. I am often challenged by the thought that Satan was able to brew up a biological sickness for Job to take him to the outskirts of misery without dying. This took an incredible insight.

I suppose it best that we may agree to disagree. I don't think it is edifying to delve into these subjects too long. I would only say that we need to be vigilant and understand that there is a level of wickedness coming that will be, "as it was in the days of Noah". I am alarmed when I hear angels being referred to in T.B's ministry like they are. Living near the home of the KC Prophets I have heard of this type of stuff before and it can get very ugly. This is one of the reasons why I think I distanced myself almost unconsciously for many years. ;-)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/7/20 10:18Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
but I feel it is far beneath us to make such crude a comparison between Lakeland and Oberlin.



I would also say the same about comparing T.B to Smith Wigglesworth.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2008/7/20 10:20Profile
davyman
Member



Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83


 Re:

Brother,

You are right I have not heard Bentley deny the doctrine of original sin nor of the substitutionary atonement. I repent of accusing him of these heresies.

 2008/7/20 13:52Profile
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

in response to davyman,

Dear brother, I apologize if my posts as of late have been contentious or in any way have been interpreted as coming from a heart seeking to provoke arguements or any other such thing. I simply read the original post and from the posters point of view it seems...well it seems as though he sees emerging pentecostals as mindless maniacs who would begin en-masse using such violent prayer methods that people will beging dropping dead. This is not only an offense to the thousands of God-fearing, Jesus-exalting, balanced by the Spirit Pentecostal people out there, it's also tragically imaginative. Not all of us are out there punching people in the face and whatnot...there are plenty of us who love Jesus with all of our hearts and live our lives to see Jesus Christ receive the reward of His sufferings.

If my comparisons of Bentley to Wigglesworth offended you, I apologize. It just seems to me that we often overlook the errors of former generations and in fact lift these people up as proto-types of what a true revivalist should look like. Often times these same characters have the same, sometimes lesser, and sometimes greater character flaws as the men and women we condemn in the present tense. Time seems to erase their errors and causes us to be able to separate the "holy from the profane". I firmly believe that many of the individuals we now condemn will be the heroes and proto-types tomorrow.

Certainly I know that it is a difficult thing to attempt to bring balance in the midst of criticism yet at the same time, retain a position of "not agreeing with everything". I suppose my attempts on this site have been to try to bring balance to the criticism coming forth, yet continue to promote genuine, Biblical revival and a Berean-like heart. The reason being is that sometimes even when we are correct in our discernment and criticisms, we develop unhealthy attitudes. Sometimes a feeding frenzy of sorts is sparked and anything remotely appearing to have a remote appearance of a slight resemblance to Lakeland or any other such movement becomes "spurious" and/or "heretical". It is important to be students of the word and rightly divide, yet at the same time to do so in a manner that does not become something that is the very anti-thesis of what we are attempting to promote.

These are just my thoughts on the matter. If any of my posts have been too contentious or are perceived as not coming from a Christ-like heart, please correct me and I will forever change the subject . . . I really mean that.

God bless you guys,

Jeff


_________________
Jeff

 2008/7/20 15:52Profile
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

I apologize - the last post should have been adressed to CRSSCHK


_________________
Jeff

 2008/7/20 15:55Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Not all of us are out there punching people in the face and whatnot.



You say 'punching people in the face' like it's a bad thing.


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/7/20 16:16Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

When TB hits someone hard enough to knock out their tooth is that wrong, or is he actually operating on a spiritual level that most people can't understand?

Fireinmybones, you may find that what you allow Todd Bently to do, you would never allow yourself to willingly do. This rewiring of our moral sense is a psychological ability of cult figures. They are able to do things to people, and to us, that if we did them to others, we personally would feel some measure of guilt or at least uncertainty. Yet they do these things with our approval, and even admiration. Rather then convicting us, their ministry causes us to enlarge our own capacity for moral ambiguity to accommodate them. This is a subtle bargain that is sold as a "new thing." Perhaps we accept the breaking or infringement past decent moral boundaries because we wonder if such radical demonstrations might just be that 'first century faith' we are hungry for.

Just something to think about.

Respectfully,

MC



_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/7/20 20:30Profile





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