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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257



wisevirgin wrote:

not “free indeed” until “the Son make us free” (Joh 8:36);

J. Owen

Yes! Our will was bound by sin until the Son made us free.

This is why we will be judge at the Judgment seat of Christ for the things done in our body whether it be good or bad because Christ has given us our free will back to work in us to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We will be judged by how we submit our will to God's will in order to carry out things in our body to be well pleasing to the Lord.

Why are we told to deny our self if we don't have a will to deny.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 2008/7/21 0:08Profile

 Re: rb 'set free'

The will is not the subject of the freeing here.

You could only conclude such from this Scripture by reading it with presuppositional glasses.

You are really grasping at straws here, as I do not believe any who bow before this idol of free-will would concur with you. Their arguments would come from some other angle but not from this square circle.

You appeal to Php 2:13 as a prooftext that all men now have a free-will. This verse in its context is firstly, addressed to 'my beloved' by Paul in vs.12, and secondly in vs.15 to the 'children of God'.

No Bible believer to my knowledge has ever denied that men do not have a will. So, when you say, "Why are we told to deny our self if we don't have a will to deny", this does not apply to this free-will idol.

I am keenly aware of the truth regarding the flesh lusting against the spirit in the believer,and such being contrary to one another as it states in Galatians.

Regarding your quote, "Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." I reply with a hearty AMEN!

 2008/7/21 1:03

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


wisevirgin wrote:

The Scripture...hath no such term [free-will] at all or anything equivalent unto it.

Then you can not argue that there is free will none at all, unless the Scripture show the concept of free will or none of it.

[b]Rom 6:16[/b] [color=990000]Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?[/color]
This verse tell us that we must choose of our own volition to who we yeild our selves to.

[b]Rom 6:17[/b] [color=990000]But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.[/color]How did they obey?
by choosing of their own free will.

What about your idol of "no free will"?
"Why are we told to deny our self if we don't have a will to deny", this does not apply to this free-will idol.

What does it aply to then?

If mankind has a will, what is it not free in reguards to?

Why wouldn't God give His creation free will if we are in His image and likeness?

Why woulodn't God want all mankind to freely choose if He commands all men everywhere to repent and put their faith in/on Him?

 2008/7/22 17:24Profile




Yes, maggots have a free will to be just what they are, maggots. Just as worms have a free will to be just what they are, worms.

Job 25:4-6 How then can man be justified with God? Or how can one who is born of a woman be pure? Behold, even the moon, and it is not bright; and the stars are not pure in His eyes;
how much less man who is a maggot; and the son of man who is a worm!

Q: Does man have a free will?


Yes, man has a free will to be a man and no more.

Q: What is man in his fallen state?

A: Psa 39:5 Behold, thou hast made my days as a handbreadth; and mine age is as nothing before thee: verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity.Selah.

Psa 62:9 Surely men of low degree, are vanity, and men of high degree, are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.

Q: Does man have a free will to do any good as some suppose?

A: Rom 7:14-25 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold under sin. For what I work out, I do not know. For what I do not will, this I do. But what I hate, this I do. But if I do what I do not will, I agree with the Law, that it is good. But now I no longer work it out, but the sin dwelling in me. For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good. For to will is present to me, but to work out the good I do not find. For what good I desire, I do not do. But the evil I do not desire, this I do. But if I do what I do not desire, it is no longer I working it out, but the sin dwelling in me. I find then the law, when I desire to do the right, that evil is present with me. For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man; but I see another law in my members having warred against the law of my mind, and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then I myself with the mind truly serve the Law of God, and with the flesh the law of sin.

The apostle Paul, a regenerate man, makes this confession of his will being captive(antonym;free)by the law of sin in his members.

Even the regenerate man continues to battle the law of sin in his members.

Gal 5:16-18 But I say, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.

Q. Can the flesh profit anything or please God?

A: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Rom. 8:5-10 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Now, there are those who would have the flesh not only please God while still in the flesh,but would also have the flesh profit that which is of eternal value,namely salvation,by their own supposed free will while yet in the flesh.

1 Cor. 2:11-14 11 For is any of humanity acquainted with that which is human except the spirit of humanity which is in it? Thus also, that which is of God no one knows, except the spirit of God. Now we obtained, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we may be perceiving that which is being graciously given to us by God, which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words.
Now the soulish[in the flesh] man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined.

Eph. 2:1,5 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;...Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

The will of man regarding spiritual truth and life, is dead along with the man himself, who is dead in his sins.

To put it another scriptural way, the will of man is a slave to his master, sin, along with the man himself.

Any attempt to disconnect the will from the man himself is akin to mysticism at the least, and damnable devilish doctrine at worst.

Rom.6:20 When you were slaves to sin, [as unbelievers] you were free from the control of righteousness.

Everyone is born as a slave to the sin nature. Here, Paul uses an example of the well known institution of human slavery to illustrate his point in this matter. During the time of the Roman Empire slavery was common. The Greek word "doula" = "slavery" and "douloi" = "slaves" is used here in this passage and not the word for servants. Paul's point is that slaves have no free will, they must obey the authority of the slave master. Again, everyone is born as a slave of the sin nature,(Ro 3:9). We all have a constant natural compulsion to do evil, even believers as already stated.

Now,the whole context of Rom.6-7 to exhort and encourage believers who find that they are yet prone to sin's power.

But the good news is that they were freed from slavery to their old master,sin.

Their obeying from the heart,Christ's doctrine, in vs.17 is merely proof of the reality that their new Master has freed them.

This in no wise speaks of any free will of theirs in believing the Gospel effecting their being born of God and set free to now be His slaves.


Thanks be (Strong's#5485) is the Greek word "charis", so more literally "grace to God". Paul moves from the principle in the preceding verse (v16) to the experience of the Roman believers. The apostle’s gratitude to God lies in the fact that their former condition is a thing of the past and that the believing readers were no longer subject to the slavery that leads to death.

Were (imperfect tense) signifies an action being committed over and over, which reflects the reality of the unregenerate person, who is under the continual slavery to Sin. The imperfect tense indicates that slavery was an ongoing reality before the new birth.

Became obedient(Strongs#5219) (hupakouo from hupó = agency or means, under + akoúo = physical hearing and apprehension of something with mind) means to hearken or give respectful attention to. Hupakouo is in aorist tense and points to a definite time in the past when they believed the gospel.

The phrase "became obedient from the heart" is important. Paul's point is that God works His salvation in a person's innermost being, changing the heart of every sinner who places their trust into Christ's finished work on Calvary. Now in a believer obedience is not forced or legalistic, but is willing. The corollary is that a person whose heart has not been changed and does not possess this desire to obey has not been saved.

Robert Haldane adds that...

"Christian obedience is obedience from the heart, in opposition to an obedience which is by constraint. Any attempt at obedience by an unconverted man, is an obedience produced by some motive of fear, self–interest, or constraint, and not from the heart. Nothing can be more convincing evidence of the truth of the Gospel than the change which, in this respect, it produces on the mind of the believer. Nothing but almighty power could at once transform a man from the love of sin to the love of holiness." (Haldane, R. An Exposition of Romans)

Were committed (3860) (paradidomi from para = alongside, beside + didomi = give) means to hand over to or to give over into (one’s) power. Paradidomi involves either the handing over of a presumably guilty person for punishment by authorities or the handing over of an individual to an enemy who will presumably take undue advantage of the victim.

William Newell elaborates on what it means to be "committed" to the "teaching"...writing...

Note that the Old Version misses the entire sense of this seventeenth verse in translating: "that form of doctrine which was delivered unto you, " whereas the true rendering is, that form of doctrine unto which ye were handed over (or, delivered). For the verb (paradidomi) is in the plural--ye were delivered over! This statement instructs us deeply in the Divine arrangements. The Israelites, for example, were delivered over to Moses and the Law. It was not only that the Law was delivered by Moses to them; they were them- selves delivered over to a legal dispensation--to a "mold of doctrine, " which had the Ten Commandments as the foundation, and the "ten thousand things of the Law" spoken in accordance therewith. The Jews knew they were under the Law. They had been handed over to it, to its demands, and to its whole economy. Likewise, believers now are delivered over to a form or pattern of teaching. Summarily, this is the Gospel, --particularly, the work of Christ on the cross. Believers have been handed over by God to the mighty facts, not only that their guilt was put away on the cross, but that they, as connected with Adam, died with Christ; that their history in Adam is thus entirely ended before God; and that they now share the risen life of Christ, and are before God as risen ones (Romans 6:10,11). And all believers are comprehended in these great truths, whether they apprehend them or not! It is the first duty of every teacher of God's saints to open to them the glorious facts already true about them, and unto which great mold or form of doctrine, they have been "delivered over" by God." (Romans 6)

Kenneth Wuest agrees with Newell and sums up the meaning of this verse...

"It is true that according to the authorized version., the doctrines of salvation were delivered to us, and we by the grace of God believed them. However, that is not what Paul said in his Greek. The verb “delivered” is second person plural. The Greek text reads, “the form of doctrine into which you were delivered.” That is, in salvation, God constituted the believer according to this chapter (vv. 1–14) inwardly so that he would react to the doctrines of grace by nature (the divine nature) in such a way as to receive and obey them. We were delivered into the teaching (doctrine - didache) in that we were constituted in salvation so that we would obey it. Paul thanks God that whereas before salvation we were slaves of the evil nature, we were in salvation delivered (handed over - paradidomi) to the teachings of grace so that we become slaves of righteousness." (Wuest, K. S. Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Studies in the Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament: Grand Rapids: Eerdmans)

Encyclopedia's definition of free-will:

Power or ability of the human mind to choose a course of action or make a decision without being subject to restraints imposed by antecedent causes, by necessity, or by divine predetermination. A completely freewill act is itself a cause and not an effect; it is beyond causal sequence or the law of causality.

John 19:10,11 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered,Thou couldest have no power at all against me,except, it were given thee from above: therefore, he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Mat 16:15-17 He said to them, But you, whom do you say Me to be? And answering, Simon Peter said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And answering, Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.

I believe the scriptures are replete with the irrefutable truths above, and confess with the many brethren who wrote:

"Original sin in human nature is not only a total lack of good in spiritual, divine things, but that at the same time it replaces the lost image of God in man with a deep, wicked, abominable, bottomless, inscrutable, and inexpressible corruption of the entire nature in all its powers, especially of the highest and foremost powers of the soul in mind, heart, and will.

We believe that in spiritual and divine things the intellect, heart, and will of unregenerated man cannot by any native or natural powers in any way understand, believe, accept, imagine, will, begin, accomplish, do, effect, or cooperate, but that man is entirely and completely dead and corrupted as far as anything good is concerned.

We reject the Roman Catholic doctrine that fallen man still has a “free will” and does so on the basis of clear Scriptures."

Php. 1:1,2,6 Paul, and Timothy, slaves of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the overseers and ministers: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ...being persuaded of this very thing, that the One having begun a good work in you will finish it until the day of Jesus Christ.

 2008/8/1 2:32

 Re: God Alone (E.B.D)

FROM: Easton's Bible Dictionary

Election of Grace

The Scripture speaks (1) of the election of individuals to office or to honour and privilege, e.g., Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, were all chosen by God for the positions they held; so also were the apostles. (2) There is also an election of nations to special privileges, e.g., the Hebrews (Deuteronomy 7:6; Romans 9:4). (3) But in addition there is an election of individuals to eternal life (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:2; John 13:18).

The ground of this election to salvation is the good pleasure of God (Ephesians 1:5,11; Matthew 11:25,26; John 15:16,19). God claims the right so to do (Romans 9:16,21).

It is not conditioned on faith or repentance, but is of soverign grace (Romans 11:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-6). All that pertain to salvation, the means (Ephesians 2:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:13) as well as the end, are of God (Acts 5:31; 2 Timothy 2:25; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 2:5,10). Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God's work, a "new creature."

Men are elected "to salvation," "to the adoption of sons," "to be holy and without blame before him in love" (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Galatians 4:4,5; Ephesians 1:4). The ultimate end of election is the praise of God's grace (Ephesians 1:6,12).

Decrees of God

"The decrees of God are his eternal, unchangeable, holy, wise, and sovereign purpose, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be in their causes, conditions, successions, and relations, and determining their certain futurition. The several contents of this one eternal purpose are, because of the limitation of our faculties, necessarily conceived of by us in partial aspects, and in logical relations, and are therefore styled Decrees." The decree being the act of an infinite, absolute, eternal, unchangeable, and sovereign Person, comprehending a plan including all his works of all kinds, great and small, from the beginning of creation to an unending eternity; ends as well as means, causes as well as effects, conditions and instrumentalities as well as the events which depend upon them, must be incomprehensible by the finite intellect of man. The decrees are eternal (Acts 15:18; Ephesians 1:4; 2th 2:13), unchangeable (Psalms 33:11; Isaiah 46:9), and comprehend all things that come to pass (Ephesians 1:11; Matthew 10:29,30; Ephesians 2:10; Acts 2:23; 4:27,28; Psalms 17:13,14).

The decrees of God are (1) efficacious, as they respect those events he has determined to bring about by his own immediate agency; or (2) permissive, as they respect those events he has determined that free agents shall be permitted by him to effect.

This doctrine ought to produce in our minds "humility, in view of the infinite greatness and sovereignty of God, and of the dependence of man; confidence and implicit reliance upon wisdom, rightenousness, goodness, and immutability of God's purpose."


This word is properly used only with reference to God's plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word rendered "predestinate" is found only in these six passages, Acts 4:28; Romans 8:29,30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5,11; and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or "determinate purpose" of God governs all events.

This doctrine of predestination or election is beset with many difficulties. It belongs to the "secret things" of God. But if we take the revealed word of God as our guide, we must accept this doctrine with all its mysteriousness, and settle all our questionings in the humble, devout acknowledgment, "Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight."

For the teaching of Scripture on this subject let the following passages be examined in addition to those referred to above; Genesis 21:12; Exodus 9:16; 33:19; Deuteronomy 10:15; 32:8; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 12:22; 2Chr 6:6; Psalms 33:12; 65:4; 78:68; 135:4; Isaiah 41:1-10; Jeremiah 1:5; Mark 13:20; Luke 22:22; John 6:37; 15:16; 17:2,6,9; Acts 2:28; 3:18; 4:28; 13:48; 17:26; Romans 9:11,18,21; 11:5; Ephesians 3:11; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2th 2:13; 2Tim 1:9; Titus 1:2; 1 Peter 1:2.

I've posted the above for the purpose of aiding those who may be ascending into the heights of these grand subjects.

Soli Deo Gloria

 2008/8/3 22:39

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


Wow, Easton's was direct. Thanks.

 2008/8/3 22:57Profile

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