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rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Speak evil of no man

I notice when David Wilkerson in talking about weird manifestations and so forth that He spoke of the error but He didn’t name any names. Should we be so bold in speaking about others? Does it please God when his children speak judgmentally about others by calling names of people so boldly? Should we just preach truth and speak against error but be careful how we speak of others?

Tit 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

Jas 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Any thoughts you may have on this?

 2008/7/9 18:14Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Speak evil of no man

I think there's a time and a place for naming names. Here's 2 examples
1Ti 1:20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did great harm to me. The Lord will repay him according to his works.

I'm not sure there are many who can operate in apostolic authority in this day and age though.
I do think you're right though in a general sense, when we come against people and name names, we error. I have fallen into this trap in the past and have regretted it deeply, I can only trust that in the future with the help of the Lord I'll have a greater degree of wisdom and avoid such pitfalls. But I do think that most impassioned followers of Jesus go through this valley, the 12 disciples did.


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D.Miller

 2008/7/9 21:54Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Thanks dohzman,

I think you are right concerning the apostolic authority. I believe in the 5 fold ministry but I’m not so quick to endorse any one who calls himself an apostle or prophet.

2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2Co 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Many today who say they are apostles don’t have the signs of an apostle.

Re 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Does it seem to you that even Paul, though He had authority in the churches that He founded and could deal with certain people in the church, could only warn them about the false apostles they were letting come among them, but yet He could not stop them?

 2008/7/9 23:01Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

interesting question. This is what I believe. I believe the apostle Paul had the authority and the power in/through Christ to shut many of these false brethren down, however I also believe that as Paul (along with the other apostles) drew closer to The Christ of calvary they/he laid down that right and submitted totally thier wills and prerogatives to the soverienty of the God of heaven and earth. I believe they knew that truth would ultimately prevail and out of fear ---no maybe genuine concern and love, they ordered thier lives in such a way so as to leave room for the brethren to make mistakes and miss the mark. I can't see Paul doing anything that would crowd or force a person, he left room for choice, even in his warnings. How do you see it? Do you think He should have or could have done it differently in light of this present day?


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D.Miller

 2008/7/9 23:33Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Quote:

dohzman wrote:
How do you see it? Do you think He should have or could have done it differently in light of this present day?



I dare not tread on that ground that some are doing today, and are saying that they know more than Paul and how He should have done it.

But notice what He said here before his departure.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Ac 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Ac 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Ac 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

It seems that Paul was doing all He could to correct the wrong and to warn of the danger that was coming. One can not help but notice the three years of tears night and day while he was warning the flock about the grievous wolves that would enter in after he departs.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. This is serious!

Goodnight, till later on!

 2008/7/10 0:03Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

Act 13:9 Then Saul--also called Paul--filled with the Holy Spirit, stared straight at the sorcerer
Act 13:10 and said, "You son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness! Won't you ever stop perverting the straight paths of the Lord?
Act 13:11 Now, look! The Lord's hand is against you: you are going to be blind, and will not see the sun for a time." Suddenly a mist and darkness fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

I have always wondered why more of this didn't happen, however it clearly was lead by the Holy Spirit, than I thought that maybe this type of thing happened often but like the miracles of Jesus the Holy Spirit only allowed it to be recorded once so as not to focus our attention on the wrong aspect of christianity and the "straight path" as taught by Jesus Christ. It would appear that there is a fine line between error and heresy, but when the gospel gets into a contest with any other belief it seems that the power of God is openly displayed.

Your passage above was addressed to the Ephesian church, I believe. In light of Paul's prayers and the warning in Rev. that might make an interesting study.


_________________
D.Miller

 2008/7/10 7:50Profile









 Re: Speak evil of no man

I go back and forth with this. I think 'speaking evil of someone' can be somewhat subjective. What does that really mean? Does it mean not to name anyone? I've listened to many Wilkerson sermon's and I know for sure that one I listened to called Kenneth Copeland out on heresy. I was a little taken aback when I heard it myself. He even prefaced the sermon by saying that people may be offended and even leave during the sermon which was something he was willing to accept. He seemed very upset that he had not spoken out sooner so people could avoid this heresy. If I ever locate this sermon I will forward it to you. But for what it is worth, Paul himself mentioned names in these passages. Paul ruined Alexander the coppersmith's business of crafting false idols I believe in Greece by preaching against idol worship. Was Paul speaking evil of these people? Was he doing it simply out of anger (which would compromise the Holy Spirit inspiration)? Or was he warning people to stay away because they were diverting people away from truth like false teachers would do? These should be considered. So many brethren have fallen (ie..Haggard, Baker) including one here locally and have taken so many with them shaking their faith, that I wonder if silence in naming is a factor.

One local pastor of the biggest church (a place I attended) in our city of about 250,000 people had been involved in pornography and solicitation of prostitution for the past ten or so years. There were signs of trouble with an iron fisted approach behind the scenes while being all smiles on stage. He was a smooth and eloquent speaker and the pulpit seemed effortless. He set up everything to insulate himself from being fired by squashing any criticism and demanding loyalty from the associate pastors and staff in the event he were to be discovered. When it all came out, the fall out was tremendously chaotic and hurtful. It was a black eye for Christians as the church was divided on this man and the local news outlets were picking it up. He demanded three months 'rehab' and return to the pulpit. Finally, I as understand it, some lay people who were lawyers by profession trapped him in a legal technicality and he left. BUT he left taking half the congregation with him, blind sheep who are willing to be loyal at pretty much any cost. I'm not naming names because it's a done deal. It was, however, at that point that the Lord started showing me a lot about false teachers. I'm not sure exactly what qualifies one to be an 'apostle' but if I have discernment that allows me to see clearly then as a 'watchman' I feel compelled to warn people. If that means naming names then I really don't have a problem with that. I also don't have a problem with preaching truth as a contrast to false doctrine and leaving names out. As long as it's in the context of 'love' even if in righteous anger then I think it's proper. The Bible tells us to not be deceived in these last days and it seems deception is everywhere. So how can we tell people not to be deceived by false teachers if they don't know who we are talking about? One who is under deception doesn't understand rightly divided scripture...that's why they are deceived. And the Bible says clearly that they won't put up with 'sound doctrine' in these last days, so now what shall we do?

I think this is a battle of the praying saints myself. The veil of deception can only be removed by the Holy Spirit, despite how we engage in this battle for souls. I can only hope that like Ted Haggard these false teachers fall and the light is shone on their darkness so that the veil of deception can be lifted. Of course I would like them to repent and come out against such deceptions enlightening many to the way deception works. Jim Baker wrote a book about the word of faith and prosperity heresies after a transformation occurred in prison. Now I don't know much about him currently, I just know my wife read his book and told me about it. I'm not saying this to throw Baker into the mix because like I said I don't know much about him. But it seems people still don't get it in terms of fallen teachers. They take each incident on its own rather than looking at it in terms of an overall problem. It's like the doctor's treating thousands of cases of malaria but treat each case as separate and individual rather than seeing it as an epidemic, and as a consequence they are not looking for the root cause of the problem. But suppose they do see the problem as an epidemic and the problem is a breeding ground of mosquitoes at a certain water location. If the mosquitoes are the culprits in spreading the disease, it makes sense to name them as the problem so people can take precautions. Should we not do the same with those who propagate false doctrines thereby spreading deception and infecting new and perhaps naive believers? This is sticky stuff but everyone knew who Paul was against collectively....the pharisees of that day were spreading falsehoods. Paul said 'don't believe them, follow me as I follow Christ' (paraphrase). he also said if someone comes and preaches another gospel other than the one he, Peter et al preached to stay away. I would have to think that the nameless brethren under Paul's wing were reporting names to him and others about the falsehoods being spread. But you also don't need to name names for people to get the message concerning what group or what heretical doctrine you are against. Paul made it clear who he stood against, if he could not make that clear then it would never had made sense to write many of what is in his Epistles to begin with. But Paul did both as we see below and on this thread. This was his obligation, his mandate. What's ours?


1 Timothy 1:20:
20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples. I threw them out and handed them over to Satan so they might learn not to blaspheme God.

Passage 2 Timothy 4:14:

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm, but the Lord will judge him for what he has done.

 2008/7/10 7:58
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Thanks dohzman & coley,

Very good insight you have written. I started this thread thinking about how we must come against false doctrine but be true to the spirit of the word. I appreciate all the posts but lets look at the bottom part of coley’s post.

coley-quote
This is sticky stuff but everyone knew who Paul was against collectively....the pharisees of that day were spreading falsehoods. Paul said 'don't believe them, follow me as I follow Christ' (paraphrase). he also said if someone comes and preaches another gospel other than the one he, Peter et al preached to stay away. I would have to think that the nameless brethren under Paul's wing were reporting names to him and others about the falsehoods being spread. But you also don't need to name names for people to get the message concerning what group or what heretical doctrine you are against. Paul made it clear who he stood against, if he could not make that clear then it would never had made sense to write many of what is in his Epistles to begin with. But Paul did both as we see below and on this thread. This was his obligation, his mandate. What's ours?

1 Timothy 1:20:
20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples. I threw them out and handed them over to Satan so they might learn not to blaspheme God.

Passage 2 Timothy 4:14:

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm, but the Lord will judge him for what he has done.
(quote)

Also let’s look at the ones dohzman mention in his post
(Quote)-dohzman
I think there's a time and a place for naming names. Here's 2 examples
1Ti 1:20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.
2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did great harm to me. The Lord will repay him according to his works.

I'm not sure there are many who can operate in apostolic authority in this day and age though.
I do think you're right though in a general sense, when we come against people and name names, we error. I have fallen into this trap in the past and have regretted it deeply, I can only trust that in the future with the help of the Lord I'll have a greater degree of wisdom and avoid such pitfalls. But I do think that most impassioned followers of Jesus go through this valley, the 12 disciples did.

Act 13:9 Then Saul--also called Paul--filled with the Holy Spirit, stared straight at the sorcerer
Act 13:10 and said, "You son of the Devil, full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness! Won't you ever stop perverting the straight paths of the Lord?
Act 13:11 Now, look! The Lord's hand is against you: you are going to be blind, and will not see the sun for a time." Suddenly a mist and darkness fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

I have always wondered why more of this didn't happen, however it clearly was lead by the Holy Spirit, than I thought that maybe this type of thing happened often but like the miracles of Jesus the Holy Spirit only allowed it to be recorded once so as not to focus our attention on the wrong aspect of christianity and the "straight path" as taught by Jesus Christ. It would appear that there is a fine line between error and heresy, but when the gospel gets into a contest with any other belief it seems that the power of God is openly displayed.
(Quote)

One cannot help but notice the spirit in Paul when He dealt with these 3 incidents.

The one he turns over to Satan was for correction and that His spirit would be saved.

The one he called a child of the devil, obviously was because he was a sorcerer, he was perverting the right way of the Lord and hindering the salvation of the deputy. Notice that there was no real condemnation or evil Paul was trying to harm him but only blind for a season to humble him and keep him from stopping the work of God while Paul was there. Hopefully he got saved but we don’t know.

The one about Alexander the coppersmith, he was resisting Paul and the work of God in that area and brought much evil (harm) to Paul but notice Paul’s attitude. He said the Lord reward him for his works and he also said in the next few verses about those who didn’t stand with Him, he wanted the Lord to forgive them. He seemed to have the same attitude Jesus had about letting God be the judge, he operated in the Holy Ghost and only did what the spirit led him to do.

Now let’s look at the ones I posted too.

2Co 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I believe there is something to be learned from all of this. According to the bible Paul was a man who wept and had a great concern for all the churches. He saw the dangers that were among them and the dangers coming. Yes, he preached and taught against heresy and error among them. He even confronted Peter and said he was to be blamed. But we read no where in the bible that he named names just to be naming them. He never spoke with hatred in his heart toward anyone. He never used humor, jokes, constant criticism, ill will, or any carnal attitude toward anyone. We also can’t find any place in the bible where Peter did not receive Paul’s correction in the right spirit.

Help me if you can, look at 1Cor. 11:13 where he says “for such are false apostles” and see that he is describing who they are and what they are doing to show that they are false. The big difference I see today is that this is the beginning days of the church and the church was not as large worldwide as it is today. Another thing to consider is the original apostles are not with us today. The deception of our day is much more on a larger scale and many Christians are being saved in the midst of so much false teaching. The minister I was saved under who is deceased now was a fine man but he was influenced a lot by Copeland and Hagin. He referred me to some of their books after I got saved but I mainly read my bible and prayed. I grew in my relationship with God and got to where I didn’t like listening to them any more because of the errors I was beginning to see about prosperity teaching and other things. I think we should help people in doctrinal error more with the truth in exposing the error than in attacking the person with judgmental speaking.

Some questions to consider, at what point do we bluntly call a person a false prophet/apostle, because we all have at one point or another spoke something in error?

Do you see anywhere Paul harped on the name of any false apostles? We do see that the ones he called false were the ones who were teaching falsely and claiming more than Paul.

Are there not some who are genuinely born again but are in some type of error who needs to be corrected?

Should we not be more concerned with correcting false teaching with the true teaching than just attacking the person?

Should we not with much prayer and humility before God make sure we are led by the Spirit in the mentioning of any name that we disagree with on teaching and make sure God wanted us to say it?

Correcting false teaching is one thing but labeling someone a false prophet/apostle must be revealed by the Holy Ghost, don’t you think?

Don’t you think a good preacher can lose his credibility among people if he spends most of his time harping on other preachers in a judgmental way? This can do more to help the preachers preaching false doctrine.

 2008/7/10 22:16Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Thoughts, questions

Couple of queries ...

[i]Speak evil[/i]

Intent.

Public ministries and ministers are by nature setup for criticism and should not be set off limit just because they are ... public. Their words carry out to whatever variety of constituents that they are addressing. It's an ironic twist that on the one hand they may want to be lauded or recognized up to the point of being either tested or held accountable for those things they speak. Just as often it is the 'followers' more so than those under subjection crying the loudest.

"Not naming names" is a curious notion, it's not like talking about your neighbor 'Joe Smith' that nobody knows anything about and I really do not see where there is some prohibition other than to vicariously attack someone, speak [i]evil[/i] of them.

If this is what is being constituted for speaking out at error, then I would say the accusers have a greater weight of responsibility for sparing the consequences under a guise of Christian sensibilities.

Granted, some things are just completely unnecessary, would like to think we might know the difference, the time and seasons, when to speak and when to be silent.

Quote:
Correcting false teaching is one thing but labeling someone a false prophet/apostle must be revealed by the Holy Ghost, don’t you think?



I don't know about that, sometimes I wonder if we haven't been cajoled into thinking that we cannot know truth form error lest it be 'revealed' to us, speaking in generalities brother.

There are only 4 instances used in the KJV of this combination, 3 of them are in the book of Revelations, they all use the same tense;

[b]G5578[/b]
ψευδοπροφήτης
pseudoprophētēs
psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace

From G5571 and G4396; a spurious prophet, that is, pretended foreteller or religious impostor: - false prophet.

[b]G5571[/b]
ψευδής
pseudēs
psyoo-dace'
From G5574; untrue, that is, erroneous, deceitful, wicked: - false, liar.

[b]G4396[/b]
προφήτης
prophētēs
prof-ay'-tace
From a compound of G4253 and G5346; a foreteller (“prophet”); by analogy an inspired speaker; by extension a poet: - prophet.

[b]G5346[/b]
φημί
phēmi
fay-mee'
Properly the same as the base of G5457 and G5316; to show or make known one’s thoughts, that is, speak or say: - affirm, say. Compare G3004.

One more consideration that keeps coming up in the thoughts;

[i]And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.[/i] Act 16:16-18

[i]Paul, being grieved[/i]

Nowadays the damsel would be celebrated, "[i]These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.[/i]" She is preaching the gospel! Touch not the Lords anointed" ...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/7/11 0:44Profile









 Re:

"Some questions to consider, at what point do we bluntly call a person a false prophet/apostle, because we all have at one point or another spoke something in error?" rbanks

Appreciate the comments but I respectfully disagree. There is a huge difference in speaking in error and propagating a false doctrine. Quickly as to your other point about people being saved in the midst of falsehoods, I could be wrong but I don't recall anyone saying that people cannot be saved DESPITE false teachings. But Paul clearly says that there is a consequence to being led astray. A counterfeit gospel isn't counterfeit because it lacks truth altogether, it is a mixture of truth and falsehood. Wolve's in sheeps clothing aren't disguising themselves with outright secularism and overt heresies. So these are not sporadic errors, they are a consistent and cunning mixture. The Bible clearly warns us again and again to stay away from a gospel that is different from the one Paul preaches. And if Todd Bentley has the right to tell people to 'Come Get Some' then I have the right to warn 'Don't Go'. Who will judge whether Todd Bentley is filled with the Holy Spirit and the contrary position that warns people is not? It's not as if we haven't clearly shown through Scripture where they follow a different gospel. Scripture is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and if it doesn't add up IT DOESN'T ADD UP. Anything outside of it can't be inspired. I looked at Bentley's stories and theology and I've followed the Hinn's and Bob Jone's and when I do what Paul tells me to do, test the spirits and see if they are preaching a gospel that lines up with the one written by The Holy Spirit, it doesn't fit. Again this is nothing new, these doctrines HAVE BEEN YEARS IN THE MAKING with the Latter Rain movement and they have been able to go on pretty much unabated. So this is beyond a causal 'speaking in error'. The implication I get is that since we are all capable of speaking in error we should not label anyone a 'false prophet'. I see the two entirely differently. As I said earlier, there is a clear difference in an error spoken and a false doctrine. If these public ministries are allowed to publically deceive I don't see how we can't publically warn. Now, the manner in which this is done can be debated. I agree that trashing them with mockery and flippant remarks is not appropriate, or biblical. But there is also a ton of irreverent behavior on the side of these false teachers as well. Mocking the Holy Spirit by giving an anointing to someone with a flying knee is not to go unnoticed. Not biblical, and certainly not the same "HOLY" Spirit that speaks to me. That doesn't make bashing them right, I'm just making the point.

"Correcting false teaching is one thing but labeling someone a false prophet/apostle must be revealed by the Holy Ghost, don’t you think?"

I would say yes it must be revealed and Paul implies that if their gospel does not line up with his then this is a false teaching which, by direct association, the one's teaching the falsehood are themselves false. If you are talking about a 'still small voice' or a personal affirmation then I can accept that as well. I'm not sure what your implication was here.

Again I have no problem naming names if they want to publically deceive. I can't waiver on this. I'm not doing this to win an argument, my concerns are driven by a sincerity that I can't take credit for.

 2008/7/11 8:39





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