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rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Romans 5:12-21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Brother Logic this is just one passage of scripture that shows in Rom 5:12 that sin entered the world by one man(Adam)and because of this, death has passed on all men for it says all have sinned. We all came from Adam.

The gift by grace has also come to all men by one man(Jesus).

The purpose of Jesus sacrifice is to redeem Adam's race if only they will repent and believe in Him.

If Adam had not sinned and no one had sinned after Adam then Jesus would not have had to died on the cross for our redemption.

When you say that man doesn't have a nature bent toward sin because of Adam, then you are actually saying that God created us with a nature that is to weak to keep from sinning from the beginning.

This is saying that God brought sin into the world because he gave us a nature too weak to keep from sinning, instead of Adam being tempted and disobeying and brought sin into the world to eveyone because they came from his loins.

I want to rightly divide the word of truth and not blame God who gave Adam a perfect nature before he sinned. After he sinned he was ashamed, juilty, and polluted.

He polluted the world with sin not God by giving us a weak nature.

 2008/7/16 17:49Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
coley wrote:

ROMANS 7
When we were controlled by our

OLD NATURE, SINFUL DESIRES WERE AT WORK WITHIN US,

and the law [b]aroused[/b] these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.

How is sin(evil desires) "aroused" by the law if sin was not there to start with?
There is no sin where there no law(Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13).

The usual modern translation of Romans 7:5 which suggests that sin is [b]“aroused”[/b] by the law is seriously misleading. It is clearly at odds with the context which demonstrates that apart from law sin does not and cannot exist.

To better interpat Romans 7:5 is [color=990000]5 When we were in the flesh[/color] (not walking after the Spirit)[color=990000], our sympathy for our unlawful effections animated our members to bring forth fruit unto death.[/color]

Quote:
Struggling with Sin
14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for

I AM ALL TOO HUMAN, A SLAVE TO SIN.

15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

18 AND I KNOW THAT NOTHING GOOD LIVES IN ME, THAT IS, IN MY SINFUL NATURE.

14 [color=990000]For we know that the requirements are spiritual, but I am soulish, living after the flesh, having been sold into slavery to my own unlawful effections.[/color]
(this verse is key to understand the following verses)
Romans 6:16-20, Galatians 5:17b
Knowing this , that one may choose whom he is slave to.

15 [color=990000]I don't understand what I'm doing. I habitually don't do what I prefer to do, because I habitually do what I hate.[/color]
James 1:8

16 [color=990000]But if I do what I don't prefer, I am actually agreeing with the requirements that they are good.[/color]

17 [color=990000]So now it is no longer I who do it, but my own fleshly desires dwelling in me.[/color]
Romans 7:5&20

18 [color=990000]I know that nothing of virtue is in my flesh. However, I am willing to do good[/color](wiling to have the right effections)[color=990000], but, I don't know how to do it.[/color]

There is nothing about "sin nature in Romans 7.

Quote:
Romans 5
Adam and Christ Contrasted
12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

I don't know if you read what I posted, if you did, I don't know why you are posting thi9s now.
However, I will repost it so you don't need to dig to find it.

The way to interpret Romans 5:12 is:
"Just as the first transgression introduced sin into the world by Adam...
so (physical) death (came into the world) through (that) sin...
and so (physical) death spread to all men because all sinned (so far, and mankind will continue to sin from then on)"

''just as by''
''so so by''
This is a comparison of the two.

[b]Rom 5:19[/b] [color=990000]Just as by the one mans disobedience,[/color] [in like manner of disobedience] [color=990000]the many[/color] (all) [color=990000]were made sinners, even so by the obedience of the one,[/color] [in like manner of obedience] [color=990000]so shall the many[/color] (all) [color=990000]be made righteous.[/color]

It must be this way, otherwise you have universal salvation by force/involentarily.

[b]Rom 5:19[/b] [color=990000]Just as by the one mans disobedience,[/color] [by force/involentarily] [color=990000]the many[/color] (all) [color=990000]were made sinners, even so by the obedience of the one,[/color] [by force/involentarily] [color=990000]so shall the many[/color] (all) [color=990000]be made righteous.[/color]

[b]Rom 5:20[/b] [color=990000]Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: [/color]
Because the evidence of the offence is so very great in contrast to the law

[b]Rom 5:21[/b] [color=990000]That as sin has reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.[/color]
Sin reign in those who are spiritualy dead because of the flesh is reigning

 2008/7/16 17:54Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

How does the Law arouse sinful desires?

The old story, if you are walking by a white fence with a hole in it, you walk by the fence all the time and one day next to the hole in the fence there is a message written on a sign next to the hole, it reads, don't look through this hole, which is a law, what is the first thing we want to do? Look through the hole of course.

We have seen the hole all the time and there was a pretty girl behind the fence, and we could see her everyday and we wanted to see her and had thoughts about her. Now came the Law, don't look through this hole. Now we know what we are doing is wrong. But we still want to look through the hole because it made our flesh feel good. But now we know not to covet our neighbors wife. So the law aroused wrong doing (sin) in me. Now that I know the law, I don't want to do it, but what I don't want to do, which is now sin to me, I do. So I know what to do, but don't do it, to me that is sin. So it is now that sin in me that is doing it and making me evil, that is the deception of sin, which the Law reveals in me, the same lie of Satan who was our father before the Cross of Christ. It is no longer the I that don't want to do it, but the evil flesh I that dwells in me because of the Law, sin in me that does it. How are we set free from this delima? Christ Jesus in me.

Romans 7:7-25 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In Christ: Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2008/7/17 3:03Profile









 Re:

Logic. Thanks for your post.

 2008/7/17 8:05
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Logic,

I remind you brother that the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love. Your orthodoxy ( and others ) is big enough to kill, your doxology appears in your posts too small to live. I do the same and worse, so please don't feel the need to defend by coming after me.

 2008/7/17 8:28Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
rbanks wrote:
I want to rightly divide the word of truth and not blame God who gave Adam a perfect nature before he sinned. After he sinned he was ashamed, juilty, and polluted

Then Please read this post carefuly... please.

Quote:
The purpose of Jesus sacrifice is to redeem Adam's race if only they will repent and believe in Him.

True, but many think that God must, first, [b]let[/b] people repent and believe in Him, thinking that these are gifts. This is assuming that God does not [b]want[/b] all people to be saved.

This is ridiculous, for that would make God, first, partial for arbitrarily choosing some and not others, merely because he could or would. In other words, to exhibit his own sovereignty without any other reason than "just because HE wants to and that HE can".

Then it would have God being guilty of the faithlessness and unrepentance of the whole world, because HE did't give them.
It would also have God angry with those He didn't gift just because He didn't want to gift them.

Quote:
When you say that man doesn't have a nature bent toward sin because of Adam, then you are actually saying that God created us with a nature that is to weak to keep from sinning from the beginning.
This is saying that God brought sin into the world because he gave us a nature too weak to keep from sinning, instead of Adam being tempted and disobeying and brought sin into the world to eveyone because they came from his loins.

To be specific, I say that man has a human nature that is to mature, love, and to bear fruit.
Man's nature is not specifically to be bent on/toward sin, but an nature that loves that what so ever he chooses to put his effections on.
You can not refute this fact.

Furthermore, it is not the "nature" which is "to weak to keep from sinning from the beginning."

None of that which God created us with makes us, at all, "to weak to keep from sinning from the beginning."
For Jesus was in all things, made like unto his brethren, for he himself also is beset with weakness.(Heb 2:17,5:2)+(Rom 8:3, Phil 2:7-8,)
However, He remained sinless, not because HE was God, even though HE was.
Therefore, God expects all mankind to never sin, because all mankind is able to never sin.

If not, then our standard is unjustly to high.
If Jesus remained sinnless only because He was God, then we would not be expected to remain sinless. We would not be juged for sin because we can not remain sinnless, we must sin, we can not help but to sin...ect...

If the only reason that Adam could have remained sinnless is becuse he was in a diferent "state" than we are now, then God would [b]not[/b] expect us to remain sinless now, for we now have a "sin nature", we have a predisposition to sin, we are not in that same "state as Adam was when he could have not sinned. Therefore, God, would not expect us to remain sinless. We would not be juged for sin, because we can not remain sinnless, we must sin, we can not help but to sin...ect...

I also say that God created man with flesh that is weak.
Even Adam was born with the same "weak" flesh as we have today.
I will show you again as I posted before:
The cause of Adams fall is the flesh as with the rest of us:
[b]1John 2:16[/b] [color=990000]For all that is in the world,[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the flesh[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the eyes[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/color]

[b]Gen 3:6[/b] [color=990000]And when the woman saw that the tree was[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]good for food,
and that it was[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/color]

God created the flesh as weak for the purpose of making man dependant on HIM. Otherwise man would not see a need for HIM.
The flesh was never meant to be eternal or live forever, becase that which is made with hands is not eternal.

Jesus was talking about His body in this verse:
[b]Mar 14:58a[/b] [color=990000]We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands...[/color]

However, we wait for a body that is not made with hands:
[b]2Corinth 5:1[/b][color=990000]For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens[/color]
This is the body which was meant to live for ever/eternally.

Therefore, the flesh [b]is[/b] weak, but the spirit is ready & willing(Mat 26:41, Mark 14:38 ).

With all this, remember my other posts, because all my posts tie in to each other.

 2008/7/17 11:02Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
How does the Law arouse sinful desires?

Are you countering Scripture?
Are you denying that there is no sin where there is no law?
All you are saying in your post is that when a law apears, our sympathy for contempt of that law animates us, or move us to bring forth fruit unto death. That "fruit unto death" is actualy actions that seperate us from the author of the law.
There can not be any arousal of that which is not there!
There is no sin until law is broken.
Unless you are talking about the "principal" of sin, then only when law appeares, then the principal of sin, which is lawlessness, appeares.

 2008/7/17 11:15Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:

our orthodoxy ( and others ) is big enough to kill, your doxology appears in your posts too small to live. I do the same and worse,

What are you taling about?
I don't know what you just said, I don't know what you mean.

 2008/7/17 12:09Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Brother Logic,

Thanks for responding to my posts, as you can see I have only been asking you questions, for I have not accused you of being a heretic.

I believe also with you that God desires to save everyone if they would only believe in the sacrifice of His Son for them.

I also believe that God does not impute sin to infants or condemn infants who are born in a state of innocence.

I also believe that man was not created to live independent of God but He is to be dependent on God for his life, and to love and fellowship with Him. This is the only way for man not to sin.

I also believe that God created man in a state lower than the angels first, for his development, growth, and maturity in his relationship with God so that he would overcome Sin and Satan that would cause him to be separated from God. God wants man to have a loving relationship with Him with a free will, knowing also the danger of a free will, can also cause man to sin. Also after Adam sinned, God blocked the way to the tree of Life so that He could redeem man from sin.

As I stated before I am not a Calvinist, (no offence to anybody who wants to claims they are), I just believe that God has given everybody a free will and the same responsibility to repent & believe in Jesus Christ.

I find it hard to believe that certain ones were predestined before the foundation of the world to eternal life and the rest were condemn because that’s just the way God decided to do it, then one can only hope for their sake they are one of the fortunate ones, but I just don’t know how it makes them feel if they were to imagine that they or anyone else are not one of the fortunate one’s.

I believe the bible states that everybody was given a free will to obey God or not to obey. We know that, because man chose to sin, his will is brought into bondage.

The gospel of grace is to be preached to everyone, because all have sinned, with the opportunity of salvation. The Holy Spirit is sent into the world to convict all of sin. The grace of God is available for all, but is only truly given to those who truly believe. The Holy Spirit draws the believer to Christ and the truth will make them free indeed if they continue in the Word.

Logic, I didn’t bring out a lot of details here but are you in basic agreement with what I have written in this post.

Just seeing what we do agree on. Thanks!






 2008/7/17 16:02Profile





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