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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell wrote:
[b]How unwilling men are to admit their depravity....[/b]

1: What do you think? Were Adam and Eve free moral beings, fully able to decide between obeying and disobeying God without any predetermined secret eternal will of God preempting their freedom to choose right from wrong?

[b]According to Revelation 13:8, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and according to 1st Peter 1:19-20, Christ (the Messiah) was foreordained before the foundation of the world. How could a Savior be fore-ordained if God had not decreed that there would be a Fall?[/b]

Not by "decreeing", but by [b]knowing[/b] that there would be a Fall.

It would be rediculous for God to decree anything that HE hates.

Quote:
a) If not, is there any way that God himself is not responsible for their sin and "the Fall"?

Yes. Deut 29:29. It's not our job to pry into the secret things God. We know that God has ordained all that has happened in history, for he is sovereign, yet he has remained pure and holy. Man is completely responsible for his own sin.

By answering this question you are saying that God had a predetermined secret eternal will of God preempting their freedom to choose right from wrong.

Then you just say that we are not suposed to inquire about it?
Why are we not suposed to inqure of God's seeming injustices?

Quote:
2: Were Adam and Eve either totally or partialy depraved before "the Fall"?

[b]No. God saw that things were good.[/b]

3: What about immediately after "the Fall"?

[b]Yes. They immediately shifted blame on who was at fault in the sin. Adam blamed Eve and even blamed God by declaring that it was the women whom God gave him who made him sin. Eve shifts blame to the devil.[/b]

This is no proofe that they just became depraved.

Quote:
5: Were Cain and Able (and, more crucially, are we ourselves)"constitutionally different" from Adam and Eve in respect to any innate inclination to sin? If so, in what way?

[b]Yes. Mankind, prior to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit is now completely devoid of all good. Even his good works are tainted by selfish ends.[/b]

Please, suport your statements with Scripture.
Prove that your reasonings are frome a "sinful nature" instead of the reason that men sin only because they do not love Christ.

Quote:
6: Is there anything in the Genesis account or in the whole of Scripture specifically stating that some "constitutional change" in human nature took place between the first created generation and the first procreated generation? (We're not talking here about any imputed sin, but a fundamental difference in human nature itself.)

[b]Yes. Romans 7:18 Paul declares that in his flesh dwells no good thing. This could hardly be said of Adam at the creation since in Genesis 1:31 God declares all things very good. Therefore, there was a constitutional change in the human "flesh" after the fall so that, not only is not very good, it is in fact completely empty of all good. Also, Genesis 5:3 declares that Adam bore a sin in his own likeness and image... not God's.[/b]

Romans 7:18 is stating that "Being in the flesh" or "doing anything from the flesh" the ir nothing of virtue.
Paul is not talking about what the flesh is made of or what ever is "in" the fleash.
Just as Paul said in [b]Romans 7:14[/b] For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am soulish, [b][u]living after[/u] the flesh[/b], having been sold into slavery to my own unlawful effections.

[b]Genesis 5:3[/b] [color=990000]And Adam...
...begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:[/color]

It does not say that Adam begat sons and daughters after his image in verse 4 .
This is because the author wanted to make a distinction from seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.

What is the distinction?
Adam repented and his relationship was restore with God, he is now righteous. Cain was not in Adam's image & likeness because he did not repent. The lineage of cain is unrighteous: the lineage of Seth is righteous.
The lineage of Seth brough Noah & he was righteous.

It does not even say that Cain was "after his image".
If it is as some imply that Adam's image is now sinful in contrast to that of when God made Adam & Eve in His image & After His likeness; Then it would surely say that Adam begat Cain "after his image"; and it wouldn’t make a distinction between Seth in verse 3 and the others in verse 4.
However, it only says that seth & him only is "after his image".

Quote:
7: Is there any passage suggesting that Adam and Eve, themselves, were "constitiutionally different" once expelled from the Garden?

[b]The tree of knowledge of good and evil includes an experiential knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve now knew good and evil because they were in fact evil.[/b]

They were not "evil" but only guilty.
Quote:
[b]Genesis 2:7 declares that they would surely die, compare with Ephesians 2:1 which says we are dead in trespasses and sins. After the fall, Adam and Eve became slaves of sin.
[/b]

Genesis 2:7 is phtsical death, Ephesians 2:1 is spiritual death.
Spiritaul death is only a severed relationship from God, nothing else.
One's own sin severes the relationship with God, not a distant relitive.

Quote:
8: If you believe they were inclined toward good before "the Fall," or created morally neutral, do you believe that as they left the Garden they were from then on inclined toward evil?

[b] Yes[/b]

Why and/or how so?

Quote:
9: If the so-called "Fall" (replete with its assumed implications regarding original sin, depravity, and the lack of free will ) is the supposed cause of our sins, what explains Adam and Eve's sin prior to "the Fall" when (presumably) they had free will unfettered by either original sin or depravity?

[b]Mankind still has free will. However, that free will is only free in the sense of the desires of the person using it.[/b]

Fact is, one is able to choose his own desires.

Quote:
Mankind is completely devoid of any desires for good and even his "good" desires are tainted by selfishness (dead in trespasses and sins).

Proof please.
Don't give the reason of a severed relationship with God(dead in trespasses and sins).
Because God commands us to have a relationship with Him, therefore, we are able to desire one.
Just as in reality, it is unjust for God to command an inability.

Fact is that all mankind is [b]not[/b] devoid of any desires for good.

Quote:
10: Was "the Fall" predestined by God's eternal secret will in order that mankind would be innately depraved and sinful for whatever purpose God intends? Or did "the Fall" occur without God's foreknowledge and foreordination?

[b]The Fall was predestined and allowed by God for the purpose of magnifying His name through saving man by Christ Jesus.[/b]

Your saying that God [b]wanted[/b] Adam to fall just so HE could be magnified?
Your saying that God [b]wanted[/b] something that HE hates just so He could be magnified?
Fact is that God would me magnified if Adam never did sin.

Quote:
[b]As I mentioned above, if the Messiah was foreordained from the foundation of the world, then the fall that produced man in need of a Messiah must have been predestined from the foundation of the earth.[/b]

Only because God knew about it, not because God wanted it.

Quote:
11: In the "penalty clause" of Genesis 3:16-19, we are given the specific consequences of Adam and Eve's sin, including the woman's pain in childbirth and the man's having to earn his living by the sweat of his brow. Why do you suppose there is no mention in this passage that everyone born from that point forward would be condemned from the moment of conception?

An argument from silence is not a very good argument. There is plenty of other Scripture that indicates that man is born depraved.

Anything having the ascendancy of "sin nature", a constitutionally change of the make-up of all mankind surely would have been mentioned Anything that is so prevalent is always mention at the time of incident.
Something that is so relivent and that changes the coarse of history would have been mentioned there.
Anything that is so prevalent is always mention at the time of incident.
The argument from silence [b]is[/b] a very good argument!
You have the burden of proof to reveal it.

Quote:
12: Accepting that by the "curse of Adam" mankind was reduced to struggle and pain in a way never experienced in the Garden, is there anything in Scripture necessarily implying that mankind thereafter was innately more inclined toward evil or sin?

[b]This has already been answered by Romans 7:18 and Ephesians 2. See above.[/b]

I have already proven your answer wrong, See above..

Quote:
[b]Not to mention Psalm 51:5, which, no matter how false teachers try and slice it, still speaks of original sin. Why would David confess his mother's sin in a Psalm that is about confessing his own?[/b]

[b]Psalm. 51:5[/b] "[color=990000]Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.[/color]"

[b]1:[/b] This scripture is talking about David and his mother. It is not referencing all of humanity.

[b]2:[/b] Taken literally, it is saying that his mother was in some sort of sin when she conceived David.

[b]3:[/b] A strong case can be made that Ps. 51:5 is talking about the defilement of David’s mother, because of a previous marriage to another man.
[b]a[/b] David had two half-sisters named Zeruiah and Abigail (1 Chron. 2:13-16).
[b]b[/b] The father of David’s half sisters was not Jesse but Nahash (2 Sam. 17:25).
[b]c[/b] Nahash was an Ammonite king (1 Sam. 11:1; 1 Sam. 12:12).
[b]d[/b] David’s father was Jesse, not Nahash. But the Father of David’s half sisters were daughts of Nahash. This could explain why Nahash showed kindness towards David (2 Sam. 10:2).

[b]e[/b] David’s mother was most likely the second wife of Jesse. The first wife of Jesse would have been considered superior to his second wife which had been either the concubine or wife of a heathen king.

[b]f[/b] This would explain why David’s half brothers viewed themselves as superior to David, and why David was considered prideful for thinking he was as good as them (1 Sam. 17:28-30).

[b]g[/b] This may explain why David was not called before Samuel the prophet amongst the other sons (1 Sam. 16:11).

[b]h[/b] David’s mother apparently had a good relationship with the Lord (Ps. 86:16; 116:16). But she would have been, in the eyes of Jewish law, considered defiled by her previous relationship with an Ammonite (Num. 25:1,2; Deut. 7:3,4; 1 Kings 11:2-4, Ezra 9:2; Neh. 13:23,25; 2 Cor. 6:14-17).
Points made from [url=http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/libraryoftheologycom/writings/originalsin/Psalms_Fifty_One_Five-WilliamMurray.pdf]A Perspective on Psalm 51:5[/url]

_________________________________________________
Quote:
Why would David confess his mother's sin in a Psalm that is about confessing his own?

I'll get back to you on this one.
_________________________________________________

Quote:
14: Acknowledging the obvious, that Adam's sin introduced condemnation for sin into the world for the first time, is there anything in the fact which necessarily implies that each and every person in Adam's loins would thereafter be born innately condemned? Is there any reason that sin's condemnation could not apply, instead, to each person's own sins, just as with Adam?

[b]Romans 5:15 declares that through the sin of one, many be dead. How much clearer do men want it?[/b]

Romans 5:15 talks about physical death, not spiritual death.
Physical death does not damn any one and does not imply guilt, but spiritual death does.
So, please answer the question.

Quote:
15 In Genesis 4:6-7, God says to Cain: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you don't do what is right, sin is crouching at your door, it desires to have you, but you must master it." Was Cain's ability to do right and to master sin limited in any way either by God's eternal secret will or by some effect of "the Fall"?

[b]Yes, as an effect of the fall, Cain could not completely master sin.[/b]

Then why would God even tell Cain that if he does well ...ect...?

Quote:
[b]As to the legitimacy of of God commanding something he could not actually do, the same thing is true of the command to obey the law perfectly. Yes, the law is good. No, we cannot obey it.[/b]

Then why is God angry when we do not obey the law when He knows we can't?
That is equivalent to being angry at a new born for not being able to mow the lawn.
Fact is that all mankind are able to obey the law, but are unwilling to.
They are unwilling because they do not love Christ to do so.

Quote:
[b]The purpose was to drive men to the mercy of God in Christ.[/b]

So that Christ may show them how to obey the law.

All mankind are able to obey the commands by comming to Christ to do so.
All mankind are able to come to Christ by an inherrent ability to acknowlge the truth with the acting upon that truth.

 2008/7/9 12:54Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

I'm on a lunch break from work, so I don't have much time to respond to this. However,

What are you really arguing for? Let's assume that people really are born innocent. Even if that's true, everyone would agree they fall and become spiritually depraved at 1.5 - 2 years old. I don't know if you have kids, but they will understand a command from a parent and willingly break it at a [b]very[/b] young age.

But, the fact is, we are born sinful. It has been the disgust of proud men to admit this fact and they have always boasted of their own power and might and that their nature is good, even when their daily experience proves them otherwise.

Not only that, they rail against the holy Scriptures:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were [b]by nature[/b] the children of wrath, even as others. (Ephesians 2:3)

Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth." Jonathon Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."

Also, if the wages of sin is death, why do infants ever die?

Regarding your reference to the purpose of the Law driving men to Christ in order to show them how to obey the law, I have few things to say.

First, if by that you meant that after someone is justified by faith alone, they are then motivated to live a godly life of obedience out of thankfulness for the grace of God in Christ (as Titus 2:11 indicates "the grace of God teaches us") then I agree with you. We find our strength and inspiration to honor God in the grace of Christ.

However, if by that statement you meant that as, according to the view I understand you to hold, since Adam was merely a bad example and our nature is not sinful; therefore, Christ is merely a good example who shows us how to be justified by obeying the law. I disagree with you and encourage you to study Galatians and Romans, because you do not know the Gospel nor have any interest in it.

For your further reflection: http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=original+sin


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/7/9 13:41Profile
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

PSalm 58:8
The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as they be born, speaking lies...

love
andy


_________________
andy

 2008/7/9 14:46Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""By answering this question you are saying that God had a predetermined secret eternal will of God preempting their freedom to choose right from wrong."""

That is what is called the mystery, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." The only difference is God is preempting mans choosing, for he can not choose what is right in his own soul because without Christ, his soul is ruled by one he chose to believe in, his father the devil.

Quote:

"""Then you just say that we are not suposed to inquire about it?
Why are we not suposed to inqure of God's seeming injustices"""

There are no injustices with God, only in the minds of men, God will reveal all that He wants to reveal to men, no more or no less.

He revealed the Mystery to Paul, which no one knew anything about from the foundation of the world. To this day no one wants to hear the truth of this Mystery. That takes too much away from man and his pride.

Colossians 1:12-20 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

What don't we understand about "ALL".

The Mystery of God chosen before the foundation of the world, revealed to Paul and Paul only, that we might know, that is "KNOW" that all things come together in Christ, that are in Heaven and on Earth.

Colossians 1:21-29 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ and Christ alone, who is our salvation and new life pre planned, before the foundation of the World.

It has happened to the Lamb slain (((FROM))) the foundation of the world.

Re 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that (((was))) slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the (((FROM)))foundation of the world.

It was planned (((BEFORE))) the foundation of the World.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him (((before))) the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This is the blessings and the mystery fulfilled in Christ.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/7/9 22:03Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"""Not by "decreeing", but by knowing that there would be a Fall.

It would be rediculous for God to decree anything that HE hates"""

If the foreknowledge of God new of the fall and He still created the Fallen, is that not the same as a decree? Same thing with Satan, God has ruled over Satan since He created him, and God is ruling over the Hearts of Men, that He created and has provided Sonship for them by, in His Plan, Putting Jesus Christ in the Spirits of all who are saved and given to them, by Jesus Christ, "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption".

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I believe God knows what He is doing and needs not man's philosophy. His ways are so far above our peanut of a mind, any one who would question His ways is truly small minded unless he is questioning His ways to know more of the Mind of Christ that has been given him. Then knowing the revelation is coming direct from the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things of God and what Christ has said.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/7/9 22:46Profile









 Re: Q & A

Hi Jack,

Proverbs 29:9 When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, The foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest.

Proverbs 23:9 Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, For he will despise the wisdom of your words.

Proverbs 26:4 Do not answer a fool with his own stupidity, or you will be like him.

Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool with his own stupidity, or he will think he is wise.

Eph. 1:11 ...Who [God] worketh all things after the counsel of His will.

Q. If God works all things after the counsel of His will, how much does He work to the will of you, me, Satan, etc.?

A. None.

B. 20%

C. 50%

D. 85%


Is. 14:24 Jehovah of hosts hath sworn, saying , Surely, as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand.

Q. How much of what He wants to come to pass, doesn’t?

A. All of His thoughts will come to pass

B. Some of His thoughts will not come to pass

C. A few of His thoughts will not come to pass

D. A lot of His thoughts will not come to pass


Rom. 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many bretheren: and whom He foreordained, them He also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

Q. How many do you think have been called, justified, or glorified that He did not first foreknow or foreordain?

A. Write in your answer: ___________________


John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know my own, and mine own know me, even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Q. Where does this scripture say that Jesus laid down his life for the sheep and the goats

A. It doesn’t

B. It doesn’t, but I just know He meant the goats, too


John 6:65 No man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

Q. How many come to Jesus that were not first given to him by the Father?

A. 0

B. 5,000

C. 5,000,000

D. 10,000,000



John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me

Q. How many that the Father gave Him will not come to Him?

A. Two

B. A couple of thousand

C. A couple of million

D. Trick question, it says they will all come unto him



John 10:28 I [Jesus] give unto them (true followers, or ‘sheep’) eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Q. How many sheep do you think have been snatched from either God’s or Jesus’ hands?

A. None

B. 50,000

C. 500,000

D. 1,000,000



Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Q. Considering this, and other related scripture, God having to blot out a name from the book of life would mean:

A. God makes mistakes.

B. Some have been snatched from Jesus’ hands?

C. God didn’t know that some of His sheep were really goats.

D. None of the above.

Q. Could a person whose name was written in the book of life from the foundation of the world not have become a Christian (or have saving faith in God if born before Jesus)?

A. No

B. Yes

C. This confuses me, but I’m going to believe the Bible.

D. This confuses me, and I’m going to pretend this isn’t in the Bible (be honest).



Matt. 13 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Q. Jesus himself declared that one of the reasons why He spoke in parables was that the truth might be concealed from whom it was not intended. Is this fair?

A. No.

B. Yes.

C. Who are we to question God?

D. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse.



Rom. 8:28 To them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to His purpose.

Q. How many things do not work for the good of those who love God?

A. 10% of all things

B. 40% of all things

C. 85% of all things

D. Trick question, the Bible says all things work for the good of those who love Him



Mark 14:30 And Jesus said unto him (Peter), Verily I say unto thee, that thou, today, even this night before the cock crow twice shall deny me thrice.

Questions:

A. Could Peter not have denied Jesus three times before the cock crowed twice?

Answer here: ____________________________

B. Did Jesus make Peter deny him, or did Peter do it of his own free will?

Answer here: ____________________________



Exodus 4:11 [God Himself asks the rhetorical question] Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or dumb? Who gives him his sight or makes him blind? Is it not I the Lord?

Q. Is this fair?

A. Yes.

B. No.

C. Who are we to question God?

D. I’m going to pretend this isn’t in the Bible.

Above quiz by J. Banks

 2008/7/9 23:42
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Amen, Wise virgin.

Your lamp is full and you are waiting and ready for the Bride Groom.

Amen.
In Christ:Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/7/10 5:42Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell wrote:

What are you really arguing for? Let's assume that people really are born innocent. Even if that's true, everyone would agree they fall and become spiritually depraved at 1.5 - 2 years old. I don't know if you have kids, but they will understand a command from a parent and willingly break it at a [b]very[/b] young age.

Yes, we do fall and become spiritually depraved from our first accountable sin.

Yes, children do [b]understand a command[/b] from a parent and willingly break it at a very young age, [b]BUT[/b] they are not accountable for breacking it untill they are past the age of accountability.
Only God knows that age for each child.

Quote:
But, the fact is, we are born sinful.

We are born innocent, [b]without knowlege of God[/b], with out a conscience(a conscience is learned); although God still keeps them in a right standing(righteous) with HimSelf because of that innocence.

Quote:
It has been the disgust of proud men to admit this fact and they have always boasted of their own power and might and that their nature is good,

I'm not saying that nature is good or bad, all I am saying that we are not born with a "Sin Nature".
We are born with a Human Nature just as a tree has a plant nature.
Our human nature is to grow and bear fruit just as a plant.
What ever fruit it bears, a tree still has a nature of a plant, not an apple nature, oriange nature or banana nature.

The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has, it will always remain a plant no matter what kind of fruit it bears.
However, what ever it is grafted into or what ever its root is of does change it's fruit.

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.

Just as a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

Quote:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (Ephesians 2:3)


"By nature the children of wrath"
This does not prove the doctrine of original sin, because the word "nature" is not "γενεσις" Strongs Greek #1078 genesis - nativity; figuratively nature: - generation, nature (-ral).

The word is "φυσις" phusis - foo'-sis
growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - kind, nature.

The difference is "genesis" defines [b]what[/b] one is, while "phusis" difines [n]who[/n] one is.
The fact that one may choose who ones self becomes or who one is, while one can not choose what one is.
What I am is a man, who I am is a husband of Loiza.

James 1:23 "a man's [b]natural[/b] face"
A mans "genesis" face.
One cannot change his face, but one may change his position with God from wrath "by nature the children of wrath" to His favore.

It is also as when one is thirsty, one naturaly (phusis) drinks; so as if one had his conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind" he naturaly is a child of wrath.

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Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth."

What would you expect if one does not love Christ?
It is not because of his nature, it is because of his affections.


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Also, if the wages of sin is death, why do infants ever die?

Plants and animals die, do they have a sin nature?
or have they sinned?

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Regarding your reference to the purpose of the Law driving men to Christ in order to show them how to obey the law, I have few things to say.

First, if by that you meant that after someone is justified by faith alone, they are then motivated to live a godly life of obedience out of thankfulness for the grace of God in Christ (as Titus 2:11 indicates "the grace of God teaches us") then I agree with you. We find our strength and inspiration to honor God in the grace of Christ.

Also because we now Love HIM.

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However, if by that statement you meant that as, according to the view I understand you to hold, since Adam was merely a bad example and our nature is not sinful;

Adan was more that a "bad example", he had no children that saw him disobey to give an example.
Adam brought the knowlege of evil:
[b]Gen 3:22[/b] [color=990000]Behold, the man [b]was[/b] as one of Us, [he is] knowing good and evil now.[/color] For fear that he stretch out his hand and take of the tree of life and eat to live forever,
[b]:23[/b] the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.

Adam became unlike God with the knowledge of evil, he did [b]not[/b] gain a sin nature.
That would be like calling ones nature accoring to its fruit "apple nature" instead of "plant nature" for an apple tree.

However, calling one sinful does not mean his nature is sin. If you have no respect or reverenc for mariage, you would have fruit towards adultery, you wouldn't have an adulterous nature, because you would still not adulterate that which you respect and reverence.

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therefore, Christ is merely a good example who shows us how to be justified by obeying the law.

Christ is more that a "good example"!
When Jesus finished all that needed to done:
[b]1:[/b] Curse of the law to be taken away (2Corinth 5:21, Gal 3:13).
[b](a)[/b] For the setting free of the captive slave of the law(Luke 4:18, Galatians 5:1).
[b]2:[/b] Blood to be shed for the cleansing/purging from the guilt and the clearing of the conscience of the guilt of sin(braking the law)(Ephesians 1:7 & Colossians 1:14)
[b](a)[/b] purchasing/redeeming from the judgment of sin which is our forgiveness(Ephesians 1:7 & 1 Corinthians 6:20 & 7:23).

He also puts us in a right standing with the Father by what HE has done.(this is giving us rightousness)
HE made away for us to recieve His Holy Spirit for being a Helper and a Comforter, and to give us power to be witnesses, for better understanding of His Word...ect...

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I disagree with you and encourage you to study Galatians and Romans, because you do not know the Gospel nor have any interest in it.

Please don't presume anything which I have not told you.
Would you agree to what I said about Christ being more that a good example?

Did I miss anything, if I did, I might agree with you also.

 2008/7/11 12:52Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

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Christinyou wrote:
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By answering this question you are saying that God had a predetermined secret eternal will of God preempting their freedom to choose right from wrong.



That is what is called the mystery, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory." The only difference is God is preempting mans choosing, for he can not choose what is right in his own soul because without Christ, his soul is ruled by one he chose to believe in, his father the devil.

[b]Eph 1:9[/b] [color=990000]Having made known unto us the mystery of his will...ect...[/color]What "mystery" has He, or wouldn't HE reviel to us if we ask, especialy the seemingly unjust ones as those Calvinists tell of.

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Then you just say that we are not suposed to inquire about it?

There are no injustices with God, only in the minds of men, God will reveal all that He wants to reveal to men, no more or no less.

I know there is no injustices with God, but you always bring things up that make God into a sadistic tyrant.

Those things are the "[b]seemingly[/b] unjust which we read from scripture that when one misinterprets them, they make God to be unjust.

This is what I am talking about.

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God will reveal all that He wants to reveal to men, no more or no less.

Who are you to sat what HE will not reeal?
I know of one thing that He will not reveal, Rev 10:4.
There may be more but we may all know what HE will not reviel.

If he has not reviled, then you have no right to say I am wrong.

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Not by "decreeing", but by knowing that there would be a Fall.

If the foreknowledge of God new of the fall and He still created the Fallen, is that not the same as a decree?

I guess it depens on what you mean by decree.
God did not "Decree" as in:
Strongs Hebrew #2706 cho^q - khoke
or
Strongs Hebrew #2942 ṭe‛êm - teh-ame'
or
Strongs Hebrew #6599 pithgâm - pith-gawm'
or
Strongs Hebrew #1881 dâth - dawth
or
Strongs Hebrew #3982 ma'ămar - mah-am-ar'
or
Strongs Hebrew #1504 gâzar - gaw-zar'

These would mean that God wanted Adam to fall or fortold that he would.


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His ways are so far above our peanut of a mind,

If you take this statement from Isaiah 55:8-9, then you are taking it out of context(with no suprize)
This verse is with the subject of pardon; and the sense must be that the plans and purposes of God in regard to forgiveness are as far above those of people as the heavens are higher than the earth.

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any one who would question His ways is truly small minded unless he is questioning His ways to know more of the Mind of Christ that has been given him.

Y'all think I'm question God when I come againt you.
I'M NOT!!!
I am always comming against your theologys and doctrines.
Therefore, who is the "small minded"?

 2008/7/11 13:09Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Hello,

I don't have much time to devote to this avenue of discussion. However, I have presented my arguments from the Scripture in what I feel is a plain and clear manner. Also, it is my conviction and I think it is obvious that anyone who denies the teaching that we are born sinful and naturally desire sin over God is showing a plain denial of Holy Scripture and needs to repent of such error.

If anyone desires further reading on the topic, please study the Scriptures I posted.

Also, please consult these resources:

Canons of the Council of Orange (529 AD): http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_orange.html

Many Articles on Original Sin: http://www.monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=original+sin


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/7/11 13:47Profile





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