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Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927


Please consider the entire quote of mine you quoted...

"Since the fall, man is now slaves to sin, unable to fear God or even see the truth of the Gospel [b]without God removing their heart of stone and giving them a heart of flesh"[/b]

Taylor Otwell

 2008/7/4 11:26Profile


I did consider it brother, I simply disagree with you......Frank

 2008/7/5 1:48

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


Not desiring to derail this thread, but wanting to address the same copy/pasted quote from Justin Martyr that has floated around here before and has been addressed at length, here is the link for a full rebuttal.

[url=]Rebuttal to a man who seems to have faith in faith.[/url]

 2008/7/5 7:04Profile

Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927


I did consider it brother, I simply disagree with you......Frank

No, you disagree with the Holy Scripture and the God who breathed them. I humbly urge you to repent.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezek 36:26-27)

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. (Jer 32:40)

All of the verses you quoted I completely agree with, we are to fear God. However, man will not fear God unless God takes that dead heart of stone and gives him a heart of flesh. This is plainly declared in the Scripture.

Read the article that theopenlife posted for you. The "earliest possible sources" on this matter is the Holy Scripture, not Justin Martyr, who is not regarded as canonical or inspired.

I know this post may sound harsh, but there is too much jellyfish, no-backbone theology floating around, and people need to stand up and declare Scriptural truths such as the depravity of man, the sovereignty of God, the holiness of God, the free grace of God, and such other truths that have been falling aside.

Taylor Otwell

 2008/7/5 11:48Profile


Hi theopenlife....I appreciate the link to the rebuttell, that is what good debate is all about.
TaylorOtwell's reply....

"No, you disagree with the Holy Scripture and the God who breathed them. I humbly urge you to repent." immature at best. Listen brother, I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture. I do not belive you to be a heretic or in need of repentence. It seems that you are fully persauded in what you belive, and you should be. Yet, perhaps a little less arrogance and notions of infallibility would help the discussion.......Frank

 2008/7/5 12:01


Hi opnelife

If you are going to do a proper rebbuttel, why did you not give you readers the proper context to the Justin Martyr piece? The first time you read that it was in the context of an extremely lengthy piece called "How great the Darkness?" which was based in John 6. This can be found in the thread "Radical Depravity..Tulip Calvinism."

PS If you want to find a country, ravaged by the doctrines of Calvinism, you need look no further than my Country of Scotland. Scotland needs the person of Jesus, not another dogmatic theological theory written by an elitist.

 2008/7/5 12:17

Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927



I would urge you to learn about the godly Scottish men who believe these things. Perhaps look into the "Scots Worthies" or "Fair Sunshine".

Just because some have preached these doctrines in a cold, formal way does not discredit them. For they have often been preached with such warmth and fervency that it would make even the preachers we consider "radical" to look like ear-ticklers.

If it wasn't for God's grace in rising up men who believed things like the depravity of man and God's sovereignty, we could all be attending mass tomorrow and wondering how long we will spend in purgatory. All while the priest reads a Latin Bible and tells us to pray the hail Mary five times.

Taylor Otwell

 2008/7/5 13:02Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707


What is God's Grace?

Ephesians 2:4-8 But God , who is rich in mercy , for his great love wherewith he loved us , Even when we were dead in sins , hath quickened us together with Christ , (by grace ye are saved ;) And hath raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus : That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus . For by grace are ye saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves : it is the gift of God :

5485. charis
Search for G5485 in KJVSL
cariV charis khar'-ece
from 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

The center of Grace is, "God's Devine influence upon the Heart". Unmerited favor.

So if I may, insert the definition:

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) ((that is: "By God's Devine influence upon the Heart,)) you are saved". ((Added))

Ephesians 2:7 That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace ("in his Devine influence upon the heart") in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace (God's Devine influence on the heart) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

What is, "faith" and where does it come from?

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3982. peitho
Search for G3982 in KJVSL
peiqw peitho pi'-tho
a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.

To sum up: The center of Faith is the, "truthfulness of God in inward certainty to agree and believe and obey".

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for , the evidence of things not seen .

Strong's Greek Dictionary
5287. hupostasis
Search for G5287 in KJVSL
upostasiV hupostasis hoop-os'-tas-is
from a compound of 5259 and 2476; a setting under (support), i.e. (figuratively) concretely, essence, or abstractly, assurance (objectively or subjectively):--confidence, confident, person, substance.

Added, The center of substance is; Concrete assurance objectively or subjectively, confidence of the person of substance, which is God.

Which is the evidence we have in ourselves.

Read Heb 11, with in place of faith, insert the "Truthfulness of God", by the influence of God on the heart. Who's faith is it? Moses, Abraham, Noah, only by the truthfulness and the influence of God on the Heart.

They were saved "by" this influence, "The truthfulness of God", by the faith imputed, from the outward influence of God, which God counted to them as righteousness.

We are saved "through" the inward influence of Christ in us the Hope of Glory, which God has made us righteous in Him.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved (through) faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

"The Gift of God"?

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The Faith of the Son of God, "Saved by Grace Through Faith." His Devine influence on the Heart of the truthfulness of God.

This is Paul's Devine mission to impart these truths to the Saints of God in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to h\His working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip


 2008/7/5 17:51Profile


Hi Taylor...part of the problem is that Americans , North Americancs, have a romanticised view of Scotland and other European countries. Problem is, this view does not line up with reality.

There has been a true witness, down through the ages, apart from the Catholic church. This witness no more relies on Calvin, Luther, Knox or anyone else. The "Protestant," church is not much better than the Catholic church in this regard. The same untouched people group, Scottish working class, indeed European working class(the vast majority of all peoples in the last 300 years) are completely untouched by the Gospel. I would say that if it were not for small Pentecostal churches throughout Scotland, the Christian Church, as an entity, would die out in this generation. You can read about the Waldenese and other groups on my website.

The last time Scotland was touched, and in a very limited way, was in the Lewis revival. Before that it was the welsh revival which also came and touched the lives or working class folk (85% of the people). Nothing to do with Calvin, Knox of Luther. The vast majority of the Scottish people remained unchanged by all of the above people. When the wind of the Spirit blows upon the people in a genuine move of God, then people are touched.

I am always amazed at how naive North American religous people, some well intentioned, others with romantic notions, come to Scotland, dont engage the people, and leave dis-heartened. This is what will happen to the sermonindex conference if they come with the same attitude.

All the theories and dogmas and systamatic theologies will serve you no pupose when you collide with spiritual forces that have been in place for thousands of years. Only the pure simple gospel of Jesus Christ, spoken by men(of no particular note) filled with the Spirit of God so that their words "stab in the heart," the hearers will change Scotland.

Scottish people are no more or less immune to that than anyone else.........Frank

 2008/7/5 21:06

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


JaySaved wrote:

Adam was created in a state of innocence. We know this because of Genesis 2:25, "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." In Genesis 2:16-17 we read, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

As it iwas with Adam, so it is with all mankind.
Adam was created in a state of innocence, so are we.

Genesis 2:25, "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed."
Same as children today.

Genesis 2:16-17 we read, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Once a child knows to refuse the evil, and choose the good(Deu 1:39, Isa 7:16) and then when the child disobeys that which he knows to do or not to do, he shall die spiritualy, for he is going against his own conscience(law of his heart).

Genesis 3:6-7 says, "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths."

Adam & Eve sinned the same as all mankind falls today. There is no diference.

The cause of Adams fall is the flesh as with the rest of us:
[b]1John 2:16[/b] [color=990000]For all that is in the world,[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the flesh[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]the lust of the eyes[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]the pride of life,
is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/color]

[b]Gen 3:6[/b] [color=990000]And when the woman saw that the tree was[/color]
[b]1:[/b] [color=990000]good for food,
and that it was[/color]
[b]2:[/b] [color=990000]pleasant to the eyes.
and a tree to be[/color]
[b]3:[/b] [color=990000]desired to make one wise
she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.[/color]

Adam died spiritually when he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Notice that their "eyes were opened and they knew they were naked". God had told them that they would die and they did die that moment. It was not a physical death but it was a spiritual death. It was at that moment that they went from a state of spiritual innocence to a state of spiritual death.

What makes that any diferent with us today?

The moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree, his nature changed and also the nature of all who would be born from him.

Were do you get that?
Do you have scriptural support?

Back to Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

This is irrelivant to what you just said.
The way to interpret Romans 5:12 is:
"Just as the first transgression introduced sin into the world by Adam...
so (physical) death (came into the world) through (that) sin...
and so (physical) death spread to all men because all sinned (so far, and mankind will continue to sin from then on)"

We are born with more than weakness; we are born with a sinful nature.

Why do you say that we have a sin nature if Adam sinned the same way and reason as we do today?

The fact that every single person born from Adam has sinned proves that it is impossible to refrain from sin.

No, it doesn't.
That would be to say:
The fact that every single time I flipp a coin to "Tails" proves that it is impossible to flipp a coin to "heads"

If it was a mere weakness, then someone would have been able to live without sin.

Some one has, He is Jesus!
[b]Hebrews 4:15[/b] [color=990000]For we have not a high priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses; but was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.[/color]
[b]Hebrews 5:2[/b] [color=990000]Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are wayward; for he himself also is beset with weakness.[/color]

Jesus did not stay sinnless just because HE was God, otherwise our standard would be unjust, because we are not God.
Standards must be atainable!

 2008/7/9 11:00Profile

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