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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Troubling Questions for y'all

A book by Dr. F. Lagard Smith entitled [u][b]Troubling Questions for Calvinists[/b][/u]... And all the rest of us. One thing that seems clear is that he is out to show the fallacy of original sin. The chapter on original sin begins with 15 questions that I thought I would put here for your consideration.

Under a section entitled What Fell in "the Fall"? he writes,

[b]1:[/b] What do you think? Were Adam and Eve free moral beings, fully able to decide between obeying and disobeying God without any predetermined secret eternal will of God preempting their freedom to choose right from wrong?

[b]a)[/b] If not, is there any way that God himself is not responsible for their sin and "the Fall"?

[b]b)[/b] If so, were they simply exceptions to an otherwise universal rule of predestination and sovereign causation?


[b]2:[/b] Were Adam and Eve either totally or partialy depraved before "the Fall"?


[b]3:[/b] What about immediately after "the Fall"?


[b]4:[/b] By virtue of their created nature as human beings, were Adam and Eve:

[b]a)[/b] innately inclined more toward evil than good; or

[b]b)[/b] innately inclined more toward good than evil; or

[b]c)[/b] simply given a neutral capacity for moral choice between good and evil?


[b]5:[/b] Were Cain and Able (and, more crucially, are we ourselves)"constitutionally different" from Adam and Eve in respect to any innate inclination to sin? If so, in what way?

[b]6:[/b] Is there anything in the Genesis account or in the whole of Scripture specifically stating that some "constitutional change" in human nature took place between the first created generation and the first procreated generation? (We're not talking here about any imputed sin, but a fundamental difference in human nature itself.)

[b]7:[/b] Is there any passage suggesting that Adam and Eve, themselves, were "constitiutionally different" once expelled from the Garden?

[b]8:[/b] If you believe they were inclined toward good before "the Fall," or created morally neutral, do you believe that as they left the Garden they were from then on inclined toward evil?

[b]9:[/b] If the so-called "Fall" (replete with its assumed implications regarding original sin, depravity, and the lack of free will ) is the supposed cause of our sins, what explains Adam and Eve's sin prior to "the Fall" when (presumably) they had free will unfettered by either original sin or depravity?

[b]10:[/b] Was "the Fall" predestined by God's eternal secret will in order that mankind would be innately depraved and sinful for whatever purpose God intends? Or did "the Fall" occur without God's foreknowledge and foreordination?

[b]11:[/b] In the "penalty clause" of Genesis 3:16-19, we are given the specific consequences of Adam and Eve's sin, including the woman's pain in childbirth and the man's having to earn his living by the sweat of his brow. Why do you suppose there is no mention in this passage that everyone born from that point forward would be condemned from the moment of conception?

[b]12:[/b] Accepting that by the "curse of Adam" mankind was reduced to struggle and pain in a way never experienced in the Garden, is there anything in Scripture necessarily implying that mankind thereafter was innately more inclined toward evil or sin?

[b]13:[/b] Even granting that ejection from the Garden put distance between God and man as compared with the close communion Adam and Eve had shared with him, is there anything in Scripture suggesting that a fundamental change in the human constitution also resulted?

[b]14:[/b] Acknowledging the obvious, that Adam's sin introduced condemnation for sin into the world for the first time, is there anything in the fact which necessarily implies that each and every person in Adam's loins would thereafter be born innately condemned? Is there any reason that sin's condemnation could not apply, instead, to each person's own sins, just as with Adam?

[b]15[/b] In Genesis 4:6-7, God says to Cain: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you don't do what is right, sin is crouching at your door, it desires to have you, [b]but you must master it[/b]." Was Cain's ability to do right and to master sin limited in any way either by God's eternal secret will or by some effect of "the Fall"?
If you believe that Cain's ability to do right would have required a prior act of regeneration, what biblical passage indicates that?

 2008/7/2 23:21Profile
sojourner7
Member



Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re: Troubling Questions for y'all

First of all, original sin is NOT a fallacy.
God created Adam and Eve for His purposes and
for communion with Him. He gave them the right
(will) to chose to obey or disobey. Every human
since Adam has that choice to make: Will he
honor and obey God's word of truth or not??
And all of us (that's all without exception)
have fallen short of God's design and higher
purpose for our lives!!


_________________
Martin G. Smith

 2008/7/3 17:13Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Amen,

And God is the only one in Whom we have to deal with, we can not turn to mans wisdom or philosophical questions. When we stand before Jesus Christ not a one of these question will be relevant. For He is the One in whom we live and move and have our being. Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/7/3 18:18Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re: Troubling Questions for y'all

Blessings to all of you. I wrote this a few months ago and I hope this helps the discussion.

Romans 5:12 is the clearest indication that we are born into more than just weakness.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

Adam was created in a state of innocence. We know this because of Genesis 2:25, "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." In Genesis 2:16-17 we read, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Adam disobeyed God and ate of the tree; this was sinful because it was disobedience. Genesis 3:6-7 says, "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths."

Notice that their "eyes were opened and they knew they were naked". God had told them that they would die and they did die that moment. It was not a physical death but it was a spiritual death. It was at that moment that they went from a state of spiritual innocence to a state of spiritual death.

What was God's response? God killed an animal (First time anything had ever died) and used the skin to cover their shame. Genesis 3:21, "And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them."

The moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree, his nature changed and also the nature of all who would be born from him.
Back to Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

We are born with more than weakness; we are born with a sinful nature. The fact that every single person born from Adam has sinned proves that it is impossible to refrain from sin. If it was a mere weakness, then someone would have been able to live without sin.

Praise be to the Lord Jesus, who was born of a woman but the Son of God who redeemed us from our sin. Genesis 3 is a shadow of what Christ would do in that He was sacrificed to cover our shame.

 2008/7/3 18:34Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

[b]How unwilling men are to admit their depravity....[/b]

1: What do you think? Were Adam and Eve free moral beings, fully able to decide between obeying and disobeying God without any predetermined secret eternal will of God preempting their freedom to choose right from wrong?

[b]According to Revelation 13:8, the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and according to 1st Peter 1:19-20, Christ (the Messiah) was foreordained before the foundation of the world. How could a Savior be fore-ordained if God had not decreed that there would be a Fall?[/b]

a) If not, is there any way that God himself is not responsible for their sin and "the Fall"?

[b]Yes. Deut 29:29. It's not our job to pry into the secret things God. We know that God has ordained all that has happened in history, for he is sovereign, yet he has remained pure and holy. Man is completely responsible for his own sin.[/b]

2: Were Adam and Eve either totally or partialy depraved before "the Fall"?

[b]No. God saw that things were good.[/b]

3: What about immediately after "the Fall"?

[b]Yes. They immediately shifted blame on who was at fault in the sin. Adam blamed Eve and even blamed God by declaring that it was the women whom God gave him who made him sin. Eve shifts blame to the devil.[/b]

4: By virtue of their created nature as human beings, were Adam and Eve:

c) simply given a neutral capacity for moral choice between good and evil?

[b]Appears most likely to me.[/b]

5: Were Cain and Able (and, more crucially, are we ourselves)"constitutionally different" from Adam and Eve in respect to any innate inclination to sin? If so, in what way?

[b]Yes. Mankind, prior to the regeneration of the Holy Spirit is now completely devoid of all good. Even his good works are tainted by selfish ends.[/b]

6: Is there anything in the Genesis account or in the whole of Scripture specifically stating that some "constitutional change" in human nature took place between the first created generation and the first procreated generation? (We're not talking here about any imputed sin, but a fundamental difference in human nature itself.)

[b]Yes. Romans 7:18 Paul declares that in his flesh dwells no good thing. This could hardly be said of Adam at the creation since in Genesis 1:31 God declares all things very good. Therefore, there was a constitutional change in the human "flesh" after the fall so that, not only is not very good, it is in fact completely empty of all good. Also, Genesis 5:3 declares that Adam bore a sin in his own likeness and image... not God's. [/b]

7: Is there any passage suggesting that Adam and Eve, themselves, were "constitiutionally different" once expelled from the Garden?

[b]The tree of knowledge of good and evil includes an experiential knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve now knew good and evil because they were in fact evil. Genesis 2:7 declares that they would surely die, compare with Ephesians 2:1 which says we are dead in trespasses and sins. After the fall, Adam and Eve became slaves of sin.[/b]

8: If you believe they were inclined toward good before "the Fall," or created morally neutral, do you believe that as they left the Garden they were from then on inclined toward evil?

[b]Yes.[/b]

9: If the so-called "Fall" (replete with its assumed implications regarding original sin, depravity, and the lack of free will ) is the supposed cause of our sins, what explains Adam and Eve's sin prior to "the Fall" when (presumably) they had free will unfettered by either original sin or depravity?

[b]Mankind still has free will. However, that free will is only free in the sense of the desires of the person using it. Mankind is completely devoid of any desires for good and even his "good" desires are tainted by selfishness (dead in trespasses and sins). Just because Adam and Eve were not totally depraved does not mean that they could not fall.[/b]

10: Was "the Fall" predestined by God's eternal secret will in order that mankind would be innately depraved and sinful for whatever purpose God intends? Or did "the Fall" occur without God's foreknowledge and foreordination?

[b]The Fall was predestined and allowed by God for the purpose of magnifying His name through saving man by Christ Jesus. As I mentioned above, if the Messiah was foreordained from the foundation of the world, then the fall that produced man in need of a Messiah must have been predestined from the foundation of the earth.[/b]

11: In the "penalty clause" of Genesis 3:16-19, we are given the specific consequences of Adam and Eve's sin, including the woman's pain in childbirth and the man's having to earn his living by the sweat of his brow. Why do you suppose there is no mention in this passage that everyone born from that point forward would be condemned from the moment of conception?

[b]An argument from silence is not a very good argument. There is plenty of other Scripture that indicates that man is born depraved.[/b]

12: Accepting that by the "curse of Adam" mankind was reduced to struggle and pain in a way never experienced in the Garden, is there anything in Scripture necessarily implying that mankind thereafter was innately more inclined toward evil or sin?

[b]This has already been answered by Romans 7:18 and Ephesians 2. See above.Not to mention Psalm 51:5, which, no matter how false teachers try and slice it, still speaks of original sin. Why would David confess his mother's sin in a Psalm that is about confessing his own?[/b]

13: Even granting that ejection from the Garden put distance between God and man as compared with the close communion Adam and Eve had shared with him, is there anything in Scripture suggesting that a fundamental change in the human constitution also resulted?

[b]This is basically the same question that has been asked before. See above.[/b]

14: Acknowledging the obvious, that Adam's sin introduced condemnation for sin into the world for the first time, is there anything in the fact which necessarily implies that each and every person in Adam's loins would thereafter be born innately condemned? Is there any reason that sin's condemnation could not apply, instead, to each person's own sins, just as with Adam?

[b]Romans 5:15 declares that through the sin of one, many be dead. How much clearer do men want it?[/b]

15 In Genesis 4:6-7, God says to Cain: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you don't do what is right, sin is crouching at your door, it desires to have you, but you must master it." Was Cain's ability to do right and to master sin limited in any way either by God's eternal secret will or by some effect of "the Fall"?

[b]Yes, as an effect of the fall, Cain could not completely master sin. As to the legitimacy of of God commanding something he could not actually do, the same thing is true of the command to obey the law perfectly. Yes, the law is good. No, we cannot obey it. The purpose was to drive men to the mercy of God in Christ.[/b]

If you believe that Cain's ability to do right would have required a prior act of regeneration, what biblical passage indicates that?

[b]Phil 2:13, Isa 26:12, Ezek 36:26-27, 2 Cor 3:5, John 3:3[/b]


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/7/3 19:52Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The liar became Adam and Eves father because they believed. Just like we become the Body of Christ because we believe in Him and what God has said about His Son.

Two trees, one of choice to believe the devil and him then becoming our father, lest why did He lie. He wanted to become like God.

The other the tree of Life, which is the fulfillment of Eph 1:4. That is why they were kicked out of the Garden, so they would be of their chosen father the devil and not live in that state and of the tree of life forever.

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Now the Lamb slain before the foundation would take effect after God shows man in everyway that He is justified in The Cross and putting Christ's Seed birthed in the believer, and then the nature of Adam's father and ours before the Cross or before we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and in that purpose we have a new nature and Father and Brother and Spirit-Holy.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Ga 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

A new creation race of people, God's people chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.

"Creature"
Strong's Greek Dictionary
2937. ktisis
Search for G2937 in KJVSL
ktisiV ktisis ktis'-is
from 2936; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively):--building, creation, creature, ordinance.

See Greek 2936

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2008/7/3 23:03Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

The bible is clear that man was given a choice to obey or disobey. God wanted man to obey him and overcome the devil's temptation. This would have been the overthrow Satan from the beginning. This would have lead to man's exaltation through the eating of the tree of life to an angelic state.

God's kingdom must be rid of all disobedience and God created man in a lowly state than angel's because of his foresight of the fall. When man fell he became an altogether different kind of being under the control of Satan. He drove man from the Garden and blocked the way of the tree of Life. God in his wisdom kept eternal life in His Son whom he sent to the world at his appointed time to overthrow Satan and redeem fallen man. He gives eternal life to all who obey Him.

Dare we accuse God of being responsible for the fall, only unregenerate men would do such a thing!

 2008/7/3 23:56Profile









 Re:

Here is an interesting quote from Justin Martyr, Bishop of Antioch, writing to the Roman Emperor in his “First Apology.”

“"And we have been taught that in the beginning He of His goodness, for peoples sakes, formed all things out of unformed matter: and if they by their actions show themselves worthy of His design, they are accounted worthy, so we have received, of reigning with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so we consider those who likewise choose what is pleasing to him, on account of their choice, counted worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him. For the coming into being was not our choice, but in order that we may follow those things that please him, choosing them by means of the rational powers He has given us, He both persuades us and leads us into faith."

So we see from the earliest possible sources that “believing,” was but a step towards salvation and an exercise of our “rational powers,” which we all have. Believe and move towards God, in the moving one enters into grace, and then faith makes us take the leap into death,once we have counted the cost, and it will be a voluntary death. We exercise our wills and in one moment of time, when these factors come together, a man is saved......Frank

 2008/7/4 1:17
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

That would be a really well-planned man-centered salvation.

However, here is some Scripture to give glory to God, bring some sober truth to such confusion, and destroy error.

Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. [b]From me is thy fruit found.[/b] (Hosea 14:8)

A new heart also will [b]I[/b] give you, and a new spirit will [b]I[/b] put within you: and [b]I[/b] will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and [b]I[/b] will give you an heart of flesh. And [b]I[/b] will put my spirit within you, and [b]cause you[/b] to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezek 36:26-27)

And [b]I[/b] will make an everlasting covenant with them, that [b]I[/b] will not turn away from them, to do them good; but [b]I will put my fear in their hearts[/b], that they shall not depart from me. (Jer 32:40)

On a side note: The Sovereign, Holy God of Heaven was not taken aback and suprised by the fall. It was accounted for and part of the turn of events that would ultimately serve to glorify God in Christ.

Since the fall, man is now slaves to sin, unable to fear God or even see the truth of the Gospel without God removing their heart of stone and giving them a heart of flesh.

For [b]God[/b], who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:6)

However, part of the fall is now that man is wickedly attached to his own righteousness and goodness, which leads men to even deny the effects of the fall. The old Puritans used to speak of not only repenting of sin, but repenting of your so-called goodness. Oh that God would slay these Philistines of false doctrine and revive soul-humbling truth in the land.


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2008/7/4 9:19Profile









 Re:


"Since the fall, man is now slaves to sin, unable to fear God or even see the truth of the Gospel without God removing their heart of stone and giving them a heart of flesh"

Did Abel fear God?Noah ?Abraham? The patriarchs?David? Moses?Joshua?

Exo 18:21 And you shall look out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating unjust gain. And place such over them to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.

Lev 19:14 You shall not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling-block before the blind, but shall fear your God. I am Jehovah.

Lev 19:32 You shall rise up before the gray head and honor the face of the old man, and fear your God. I am Jehovah.

Deu 4:10 Remember the day that you stood before Jehovah your God in Horeb, when Jehovah said to me, Gather the people to Me, and I will make them hear My Words so that they may learn to fear Me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and they may teach their sons.

Deu 6:2 that you might fear Jehovah your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you, and your son, and your son's son, all the days of your life, and so that your days may be prolonged.

Deu 6:24 And Jehovah commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear Jehovah our God, for our good always, so that He might preserve us alive, as it is today.

2Ki 17:39 And you shall fear Jehovah your God. And He shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.

2Ch 19:7 And now let the fear of Jehovah be on you. Be careful and act wisely, for there is no iniquity with Jehovah our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

2Ch 20:29 And the fear of God was on all the kingdoms of those countries, when they had heard that Jehovah fought against the enemies of Israel.

Jon 1:9 And he said to them, I am a Hebrew; and I fear Jehovah, the God of heaven, who has made the sea and the dry land.

 2008/7/4 9:55





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