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Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 498
Harare, ZIMBABWE

 The original sin

Hello good people!

Okay, I have a question about the original sin. We know that when Adam and Eve were made they were not sinful by nature. They were made for fellowship with God, and they were as angles, not knowing evil.

As the story goes, Eve ate the fruit because she was deceived by the Devil. As I see it, she ate the fruit because she was being selfish (the nature of sin), she wanted to be as God. How did she exhibit this quality if she was not sinful by nature? She new it was wrong to eat the fruit but she did it anyway because of her desire to be like God.

As I see it, the options presented to Adam were different to the options presented to Eve. He was not eating the fruit to be as God, but he was eating the fruit because Eve asked him to. Still it was wrong to do that, as he knew that it was not the will of God, he (Adam) exhibit sinful nature by doing it, why?

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/30 10:43Profile
RobertW
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 Re: The original sin

This question has also been on my mind of late.

We know that all the other trees of the garden were good. The tree of knowledge gave them the option of disobeying God and disbelieving God. In an environment of limited knowledge Adam and Eve had to decide if they would believe their creator or not. When God said to them that they would surely die if they eat of the tree- they had opportunity to exercise faith by obeying or exercise disbelief by disobeying.

The serpent came in to first draw their attention to the forbidden thing and then undermine their faith in what God had said. They both had a natural desire to EAT. They both no doubt had a desire to learn. They were very wise already given the fact that Adam named all the animal kingdom and ruled the earth and had all the food they could eat growing freely on the trees.

The temptation originated in the mind of satan and was transferred to the mind of Eve. We have no account of Adam and Eve pacing back and forth and biting their nails or something in front of the tree of knowledge trying to resist temptation. The serpent phrased his questions and propositions (wiles) very craftily. It induced a desire to eat and be wise at once. It advertised the tree of knowledge as a place where both of these needs could be fulfilled in one sitting. They will know something that they could not know otherwise and that 'knowledge' was something God was trying to keep from them to keep them from being like Himself. The devil seemed to posture this question as to almost say that the door to being like God is sitting right over there and the key is its fruit. God was no doubt changing Adam and Eve into His likeness from glory to glory by His presence. Would they have not shared the same luminance as Moses on the mountain? But the thing God was working was not merely the outward glory, but inward man that was being molded into the personalty of God day by day.


There is a natural desire to grow and improve in this human life we live. But God has set the boundaries for that growth and improvement. Again, I do not see those desires in themselves to be sinful- only the misappropriation of them. Satan tempted them to fulfill themselves outside the boundary of what God allowed.

Partaking of that tree did not make Adam and Eve like God- it made them like satan. Christ's personality was to become in the likeness of men and be a servant. Satan wants to ascend into the sides of the North and be like the most high.

He offered them the idea that God lied over the penalty for the sin. Is this not the great lie in our day? I heard once that a man spends his whole life pressing death as far back into his mind as he can. I propose that Satan spends his time helping us press hell as far back into our minds as he can.

When Eve's natural desire was met with an unlawful option the result was sin. The enemy did all he could to deceive Eve into believing that the unlawful option was in fact 'lawful.' But at the end of the day it boils down to this: who will you believe? Will you believe God? Or will you believe the lies of Satan? Eve was deceived in that she did not believe God. Some have said that Adam sinned knowing he would die. He loved his wife and knew she could never come back up to where he was (unfallen)- he must condescend to her- and so he ate. Is that true? Who knows.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/6/30 11:28Profile
Jimm
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Joined: 2004/4/27
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Harare, ZIMBABWE

 Re: Created for fellowship

Robert

That was very good reading for me! I think I am beginning to bend my mind around what you are saying. The proposition that Adam sinned knowing he would die has occurred to me as well.

Again another question I have relates to this scripture: 1 John 1:5-7 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.

It seems as if Satan (who is evil-darkness) could not have successfully seduced Eve if she was in fellowship with God. This sin was the fruit of the Devil. For some reason they did not exhibit the fruit of God by resisting evil at this time: John15:4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

James


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James Gabriel Gondai Dziya

 2004/6/30 12:07Profile
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 Re: The original sin

I think eve was more curious than selfish. God made them so they were like Him but allowed them the freedom (which all the other heavenly creatures have) to obey or disobey His instructions. After however much time they had spent obeying I'm sure they were beginning to wonder what would happen if they chose not to. Adam was probably curious also or maybe wanted to please eve. curiosity lead them into sin and then sin moved into their hearts from that point.


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Farai Bamu

 2004/6/30 12:22Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I think eve was more curious than selfish.


I would disagree, shall we look at the scriptures and what is clearly layed out in this story.

[b]Genesis 3:1-3[/b] - Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

[i]the serpent was more subtil[/i] - Cleary the scriptures show that the deciever, serpent, satan, was subtil and crafty looking to decieve and fool the created beings against Gods rules and edicts.

[i]lest ye die[/i] - Eve knew the drast consquences of eating the fruit of the tree and there was a fear of God in her that prevented her from breaking that commandment given by God. I am sure if we heard he responding to the serpent it would have been a fearful voice not even thinking of breaking Gods command.

[b]Genesis 3:4-7[/b] - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Now if you read verse 6 and 7 without paying close attention to the prior verses even 4 and 5 you could estimate that eve seemed curious about trying the fruit due to its potential for a viable source of food source and its comely look. But if we pay close attention to the scripture we see in verse 4 and 5 the evil serpent clearly decieves eve with fine sounding arguments and upsurps the authority of God by claiming the truth about the tree and the reason why God didn't want them touching it.

I firmly believe that if the devil did not intervene in this situation at least Adam and Eve would have had the firm convictions to never touch the fruit. Who knows about prior generations afterwards who didn't have the face to face incounter with God giving the edict and law but I am sure that Adam and Eve had an experience in God that showed they reverenced Him and His laws without wavering left or right.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/6/30 12:42Profile
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 Re:




I firmly believe that prior to satan's decieving Eve, and Adam's apparent weakness for "at last, bone of my bone, and flesh of my flesh" (not unlike so many of we men today), they both went past that tree often without even thinking about it ... They both were perfect, innocent and obedient to God single mindedly ... Satan knew exactly how to work his plan, decieve the softness to enslave the hardness ...

But this is the thing that I've wondered about most often ... "you will positively die" ... Do you think that Eve and Adam fully understood the graveness of the consequences of their disobeying God? ... In scripture satan has a dialogue with Eve about death that seems to point to her knowing what it was, and if she did how did she know? ... Did they know what physical death was? ... Did they know what spiritual death was? ... Did you think that they clearly understood the dire implication of disobeying God's edict, or were they like innocent children who don't understand the meaning of "HOT" until after they've touched the stove?



 2004/6/30 14:42Profile
RobertW
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 Re:

Quote:
But this is the thing that I've wondered about most often ... "you will positively die" ... Do you think that Eve and Adam fully understood the graveness of the consequences of their disobeying God? ... In scripture satan has a dialogue with Eve about death that seems to point to her knowing what it was, and if she did how did she know? ... Did they know what physical death was? ... Did they know what spiritual death was? ... Did you think that they clearly understood the dire implication of disobeying God's edict, or were they like innocent children who don't understand the meaning of "HOT" until after they've touched the stove?



I immediately think about our estate in terms of not fully being able to grasp what it would mean to be eternally dead in trespasses and sins (eternally seperated from God). I would have to answer this issue by saying that "we can only imagine." They could imagine what the word 'death' must mean in terms of what the human mind was able to apprehend based upon the meanings of the words. Just as it is with 'hell' (which we cannot possibly fully comprehend), we can put together enough visions and feelings of horror based upon the history of TOPHET to know it would be horrendous. Yet, people still will not turn to Christ. The rich man in hell still did not repent in the midst of the suffering. He called upon father Abraham rather than God and still wanted Lazerus to serve him. He never offered an apology or anything. The scary thing is that he knew somewhat of hell experiencially and would not call on God.

God Bless,


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/6/30 15:24Profile
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 Re: The original sin

Hi Jimm

Quote:
As the story goes, Eve ate the fruit because she was deceived by the Devil. As I see it, she ate the fruit because she was being selfish (the nature of sin), she wanted to be as God. How did she exhibit this quality if she was not sinful by nature? She new it was wrong to eat the fruit but she did it anyway because of her desire to be like God.


there is clearly a difference in the responses of Adam and Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1Ti 2:14 KJV)
There is no indication that Eve's sin had the same catastophic consequence as that of Adam. In this sense she is not held responisible in quite the same way as was Adam. If you read Genesis 3 you will find that the focus is all on Adam. God held Adam responsible and cursed the ground as a result of Adam's behaviour, not Eve's. Eve had been 'in Adam' when God gave Adam the commandment to abstain from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but did not receive that word directly. God spoke to Adam and said 'in the day that THOU eatest thereof THOU shalt surely die' (Gen 2:17)


Quote:
As I see it, the options presented to Adam were different to the options presented to Eve. He was not eating the fruit to be as God, but he was eating the fruit because Eve asked him to. Still it was wrong to do that, as he knew that it was not the will of God, he (Adam) exhibit sinful nature by doing it, why?


Adam was 'not deceived' is the plain revelation of scripture. He knew full well what he was doing. It was an act of direct disobedience; for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. (Rom 5:19 YLT)

He did not 'exhibit a sinful nature by doing it' rather he 'acquired a sinful nature by doing it' and as I understand it so did we. I have quoted Young's Literal Translation above as it makes the link easier to see. Mankind acquired a different 'constitution' as a result of Adam's sin (not Eve's).

If our constitution is at fault the only possible cure is for a new constitution. If our spiritual 'genes' were mutated into something quite different our only hope is 're-gene-ration'.


BTW we have given some thought to this already which you can find at the original 'original sin' thread


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Ron Bailey

 2004/6/30 16:19Profile
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 Re:

I know that Eve knew the consequences of what she was about to do. I'm thinking she was curious to see just what that meant. you know how it is, until you experience something, there is a certain abstractness about it. All the while she had faithfully followed God's command without question and then suddenly comes this character who says that they will become like God if they eat the fruit rather than die. that's kinda how I was looking at it.

I agree that without the devil's interference, adam and eve would have done as they were told.um I guess I should go and introduce myself...


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Farai Bamu

 2004/6/30 16:30Profile
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Joined: 2004/6/28
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 Re: sinful eve

HI there,

I was thinking about what you had said about eve, that she sinned out of selfishness.

well there is some trith to that but i dont think thats the main reason she did what she did.

If you actually look at the scriptures before Satan talked to Eve you will see that when God told Adam not to eat of the tree that God didnt tell Eve this (Genesis 2:17).As a matter of fact, Eve had not been taken from Adam's rib as yet. SO she had not been told directly from God herself and i think this is very significant.

See, Eve would have knew she wasnt to eat of the tree but she had only been told this by Adam, in other words she had received this information second hand.

One of the reasons i think she received this information second hand is if you look at her reply to Satan when he asked what God had said about the tree. Her reply was that you would die if you eat and touched it (Gen.3:3). This shows that as she had received this information not directly from God that she then proceeded to add to what she had been told by Adam As God had not mentioned anything about touching the tree.

Its like anything nowadays, we can tell people things but if they dont find out for themselves they just dont have any real understanding of things and i think Satan already knew that Eve had not been told by God, henceforth he asked Eve first and not Adam.

Let me know what you all think.

D...

 2004/6/30 18:49Profile





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