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Discussion Forum : General Topics : CREDIT CRUNCH

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 Re:

Quote:

Miccah wrote:

Rebecca_LF wrote:
Quote:


If things get really bad in the public school system...




I think that time is here sister.



I'm working on it. :-) Please just keep me in prayer, thanks.

 2008/6/19 20:07
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Hi Chris,

Quote:
Isn't this going a little extreme?



If you take my quote in a sense of how Watchman Nee said this:

"By the time the average Christian gets his temperature up to normal, everybody thinks he has a FEVER!"

Then yes, it is an "extreme".

Quote:
I do believe in living a "debt free" life. Like I stated earlier, I believe that a person -- even in the United States -- can afford to build a home without borrowing a dime. However, it is difficult to do such a thing in every area of our lives. Most of us are [b][u]forced[/u][/b] to make payments on one thing or another. The difference is whether or not we are willing to continue working in order to pay for those things.



Forced by who, by the Lord?

Kire

 2008/6/19 20:11Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:


This is horrible. They have started doing the same with cell phones here


Over here in America, increasingly it is being required that in order to enjoy any type of service that is "month to month," one usually has to enter into a 1-2 year contract. Cell phones, cable, satelitte, the internet, etc. If they don't require such a contract, they at least make your monthly payments cheaper by entering into a contract.


Now if you do have the money for the whole period, I don't see a problem with that.


With the apartment I am getting ready to obtain, I'll have enough money in my savings to pay for about 12-16 months. However, I am guessing such is a rare thing.

But with that said, I also have a large amount of credit card debt. I am attempting to live without having to ever use it again, and since early this year, I have avoided using it almost altogether. However, there is the temptation to use it to pay the remainder of what I owe for a missions trip I plan on going on in October should I not be able to save up the money needed for that trip. But, I am attempting to believe God for the money (I still need about 1,000 in the next 3 months), and not to enter into debt for a missions trip. Though I could simply take the money from my savings that I have to pay rent with, I do not feel ok with doing that (especially since some of that money is a gift from somebody who gave it to me for the very purpose of paying rent).


_________________
Jimmy H

 2008/6/19 20:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
Just thinking out loud: In a sense, when you buy something by taking a loan, you technically own it while you make payments on it. However, if you are unable to continue to make payments on it, the item is seized in order to satisfy the remainder of the payments needed. So, instead of the bank being satisfied by receiving its money in full 30 years from now, should you default it seeks to be satisfied instantly. Either way, the bank is satisfied, whether now or later. For when you take a loan from the bank, they loan you money against the value of the house. The house you own simply is the security for the loan you are given.



Who are you trying to satisfy, Jimmy? Whose will are you doing?

Quote:
To me, it seems, the lack of wisdom would be in the taking of an unsecured loan (credit cards), whereby no surety can be made towards the lender that you will be able to repay. For the in case you default on your home loan, you are able to pay in full by means of your home. Whereas with a credit card, you are up the creek without a paddle.



I don't know what surety you are talking about. The Word says plainly:

"...whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away" (James 4:14).

If we hadn't been bought with a price and our life was our own, we could probably take a loan or two and feel good about it. But if we are among those "who follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth", how can we sell ourselves back into bondage so lightly? Predetermining years of our lives for some temporal security? And that is what the banks--these ferocious wolves--are just waiting for!

Brethren, if we are not of this world, let us not become earthly-minded. When the Lord calls us, dare we not say, "Oh, Lord, but I have a diploma to obtain," or, "But I have a house to pay for... I cannot go." Do you remember what the Apostle Paul said?

"But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom [u]I have suffered the loss of all things[/u], and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ" (Phil. 3:7-8).

Is there anything we have not yet put on the altar?

 2008/6/19 20:26
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:


I don't know what surety you are talking about.


"Surety" in the legal sense of it. Your home, when you take a loan, is "surety" for the lender. That is, the value of the home when seized will satisfy the lender should one default. It says "If I can't pay you cash, I will pay you with my home."


_________________
Jimmy H

 2008/6/19 20:31Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Food for thought: http://www.crown.org/LIBRARY/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=683


_________________
Jimmy H

 2008/6/19 20:49Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Brother...

Quote:

Tears_of_joy wrote:

If you take my quote in a sense of how Watchman Nee said this:

"By the time the average Christian gets his temperature up to normal, everybody thinks he has a FEVER!"

Then yes, it is an "extreme".



No...I don't mean that your opinion about the limits of supposed "debt" is extreme...but the fact that you seemingly indict anyone who is buying a house or car via monthly payments is a [u]slave[/u]. That is extreme -- regardless of whether your opinion is right or wrong.
Quote:
Forced by who, by the Lord?


"Forced" by our decision to buy a home. I wonder: Do you have a wife? Do you have children or dependents? Do you own a home? Do you ever want to own a home for you and your family?

In the United States, it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to live without owing somebody something. The fact that you are on the Internet probably indicates that you owe money to an Internet Service Provider (ISP) -- unless you pay in advance for it (I don't think prepaid internet is "normal" in most areas of the US). The same is true for most "services" in our country. If you want water, you receive it ON CREDIT -- and are billed for this service later. It is also true for electricity, phone service, cell phone service, and even homeschool curriculum. If you enter into a "contract" with any business, you usually receive the service BEFORE you are billed. If you are on salary, you are entering a contract that stipulates that you will receive your pay as the result of future work.

Do you see the extent to "credit" in today's world? We no longer work like fishermen and carpenters of two thousand years ago. Most of us earn a living and receive payment via a government certificate called "money" (no longer on a gold standard) that is paid in return for promised work. Our homes are purchased via monthly payments in a manner than resembles a "rent to own" fashion more than "usury."

I think that it is a noble and wise thing to attempt to be as debt free as possible. However, I also think that it is unwise to call someone a "slave" simply because they buy a house, a car or even Internet services via a monthly payment or bill system.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/6/19 21:22Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

NotMe,

I would be interested in knowing if you have any bills (Water, electricity, sewer, ect.)and the answers to Chris's questions. It must be really different over there if there is no type of agreement you have to sign.

I still don't understand how it is sinful to make a payment agreement with someone and you pay it on time, every time. I understand how it would be if you make an agreement you can't keep. Of course, it's basically lying.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2008/6/19 22:54Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Tears of Joy,

Here's food for thought - Do you pay for things with cash? If you do, do you know that your $1, $5, and $10 (etc, etc) bills are all loans from the government? Look on your money. What does it say? Federal Reserve Note.

So, unless you pay with gold for everything you own, then you yourself would be a slave to debt, for the very fact that you pay with a Federal Reserve Note.

So, I too, believe that what you're saying is a little extreme.

 2008/6/20 0:38Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2660
Nottingham, England

 Re:

I can't believe this. When I switched off the computer, there was only 1 reply. Next day, there are 28. Guess it's to do with the time zone difference.

I realise that people will have different views concerning this, but what about Biblical views?

I get concerned when Christians start sounding like jehovah witnesses. That is, they start to reason, use analogies, stories or anything other than scripture. Rather, we should look to scripture and see where we are going wrong concerning our finances.

That is not to say that debt cancels our salvation, but we need to see our error, and work toward getting things right.

We should have principles like the Rechabites in Jeremiah 35, whom God honoured, because they were faithful to the principles laid down by their forefather, and continued in it.

Also, in Proverbs 29v8-9 it says, '...give me neither poverty nor riches, feed me with the food alloted to me,
v9 Lest I be full and deny You and say, "Who is the Lord?". Or lest I be poor and steal, and profane the name of my God.'

I don't know if God sees the use of credit as stealing, but I would rather not use credit, if it is in my power to do so.

Another thing is, this money that we have, God gave it to us, so, that means more than one thing.

He gave, so He can take away, remember Job. He says how we spend it, not us.

And if we suppose it is ours, God can easily show us that it is not.

Also, God says if we lack wisdom, to ask Him for it, James 1v5.

God can easily corner us so that we have no option but to look to Him for help, as Jonah realised when in the belly of the whale.

He will test us in this. He will test us.

 2008/6/20 2:44Profile





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