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Discussion Forum : General Topics : CREDIT CRUNCH

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enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2640
Nottingham, England

 CREDIT CRUNCH

I constantly get phone calls from companies who want me to take out a loan for credit cards, store cards etc.

I tell them I don't have any, and then the phone call has to end, because it isn't something they normally hear.

As it is, the credit crunch is being talked about on the news almost on a daily basis.

Over the years, people have lived above their means, and now, it is catching up with us, and the entire world is feeling the consequences.

As it is, the Christian should trust in the Lord to meet their needs. Sadly however, there are probably Christians taking out loans, having credit and store cards, getting in debt etc, exactly like the world is doing, and then telling the world that they are trusting God.

Sometimes, when it seems like God is not coming through, we turn to the world for help, as if God has let us down.

Psalm 1 tells us that the man who rejects the counsel of the ungodly is blessed. These people are sinners and scoffers, yet we run to them rather than God.

Isaiah 30v1-5 tells us of those who walk down to Egypt.

How is it we can trust the Lord for our salvation, but not for our finances, our needs etc.

If you are wondering why I wrote this, it's because of things I have seen and heard, and it is also for us to check where our trust really lies.

Just food for thought.

 2008/6/19 9:09Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: CREDIT CRUNCH

Quote:

As it is, the Christian should trust in the Lord to meet their needs. Sadly however, there are probably Christians taking out loans, having credit and store cards, getting in debt etc, exactly like the world is doing, and then telling the world that they are trusting God.



Just a sincere practical question, but, how in this world does one buy a house or car without taking out a loan? I mean, one might be able to save up to buy a decent car in cash. But, saving up to buy a house is near impossible to do unless you make a lot of money. Should Christians just live in apartments or trailer parks?

*edit* I ask this out of serious consideration. I'm just moving out on my own into an apartment for the first time, and would like to marry my fiance in a couple of years. We'd like to eventually live in a house. Together we'll make a comfortable living, but, no where enough to ever buy a house in cash.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2008/6/19 11:59Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Here is somewhat of a rhetorical question.

If I go into a restaurant that you typically eat before you pay, am I in sin from the time between I have ate and actually paid the bill? Because in that time I "owned" them money.

Most would say no because there is an (in this case unspoken) agreement that you will pay before a certain time (in the case before you walk out). If you pay for the service at the time when you agreed to pay for it, is it sinful? There are actually several things we use before we pay for- utility bills are the obvious example.

With that said, I believe we should be debt free if it's at all possible. If God called you to go to X, how hard would it be to go if you have a mountain of debt to pay?


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2008/6/19 12:54Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4476


 Re:

Hi KingJimmy...

Quote:

Just a sincere practical question, but, how in this world does one buy a house or car without taking out a loan? I mean, one might be able to save up to buy a decent car in cash. But, saving up to buy a house is near impossible to do unless you make a lot of money. Should Christians just live in apartments or trailer parks?

*edit* I ask this out of serious consideration. I'm just moving out on my own into an apartment for the first time, and would like to marry my fiance in a couple of years. We'd like to eventually live in a house. Together we'll make a comfortable living, but, no where enough to ever buy a house in cash.


My wife's family legally immigrated from Mexico when she was going into the 6th grade. From that time until they were in high school (about five years), they worked as migrant farm workers throughout the United States. During that period, they worked hard before the sun came up until long after it went down. Instead of being paid by the hour, the family was paid "by the bucket." As a result, it was important for the entire family to be involved in the work.

Eventually, they earned enough money to buy a few acres of land in the Rio Grande Valley of south Texas. Her dad eventually found a job as a janitor (first at K-Mart and now at Wal-Mart). With this money, they were able to build their own home from the ground up. All the while, the children completed public school and went on to college. The last sibling in high school graduated a couple of weeks ago. She will begin at Stanford University this fall.

The first attempt at a house by my wife's family was shabby at best. It more resembled a shack from a third world country than a home. However, they recently complete a new two-story brick home. It is a much larger, five bedroom home. We spent many days doing the work ourselves. They moved into it over a year ago (when it was nearly complete). This house is much better than the shack that they lived in before. Better yet -- it is completely paid for! They never borrowed a dime!

Now, I am not advocating the idea that home loans are unscriptural. My parents purchased their home and property with a 20 year home loan, and were extremely excited when they paid it off. My wife and I are paying on a vehicle for which we could never have afforded it with cash. Yes, we could have afforded a cheap, older used car. However, I don't know that I would trust such a vehicle to travel across the country (safely).

However, it is possible to save enough money and purchase land...and then build your home over time. Each of my wife's career siblings built their homes (rather than purchase one on a home loan). Since they have substantially more income, they were able to pay individuals to work. This helped them complete the homes in a much faster manner. They have beautiful, modern brick homes -- and they don't owe a dime on any of them.

So, yes, it is possible to build a home and pay it off without the necessity of a home loan. While this may not be for everyone -- it is possible. My wife and I are making preparations to move to the Palo Alto, California area this summer. We do NOT plan on purchasing a home there. We hope to rent...and save our money for an eventual home elsewhere. Property and building is much less expensive elsewhere.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/6/19 13:35Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Great testimonies Chris.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2008/6/19 14:20Profile









 Re: CREDIT CRUNCH

I dont think it is a sin to have a mortgage on a house so long as it is a reasonable home that you can afford. The problem in America is consumer debt. People living on credit cards. Driving $40,000 SUV's. Having loans for boats and recreational stuff. Toys.

We were fortunate that we were able to pay off our house, but we also inherited some cash a few years back that enabled us to do that. As for other loans and credit... we are $750 in debt. Thats it. And I only carry that debt so I can keep our credit rating excellent. Believe it or not, if you owe nothing to anyone it actually hurts your credit score.

But our vehicles are paid for... van, jeep, truck and motorcycle. (of course my truck is 28 yrs old!... and looks like every mile of it) They are paid for because our house is paid for.

Now granted, God blessed us in this, and it's not the norm... but it just shows that it isnt impossible. And by not being in debt we're better able to serve God's kindom by supporting several missionaries and giving financially to organizations like Voice of the Martyrs.

I think debt free living is something we all should strive for... it just makes sense. Living within your means is the key. In other words, deny yourself... deny materialism.

Krispy

 2008/6/19 14:50
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Great topic. This is something that I have been wrestling with for the last few weeks and has been on my mind on and off for about 2 years. Here is the reason.

I took this present position about 2 years ago that I am working in now, with much prayer. It is a higher paying position that is demanding, but rewarding (financially and spiritually). While in prayer about taking this position, I came to the understanding that I would be in this position just long enough to pay off my earthly debt. I really believe that The Lord does not want His children bounded by the world and wants to free us from this bondage.

Once the debt is paid off, my family and I, more then likely, will be moving to Thailand and begin the Lords work in the non-American missionary field.

Until that time, I am to pray, lead a house church, work and prepare my family for the Lord's calling.


Are we in debt? yes. Is being in debt as a Christian ok? No. Does this mean that I am in sin? (Good question Christiaan :-) ) I do not know if this is a sin question or not. We can all agree that we should not be in debt, but as life has it, most are in debt.

One thing for sure, I am in debt to our Lord Jesus Christ. This is a debt that I can never repay, but I will always strive to pay it by obeying Him and His will.


_________________
Christiaan

 2008/6/19 15:03Profile









 Re:

Great post, enid! The Lord spoke to me through what you'd written, convicting me of my unbelief.

Quote:

PreachParsly wrote:
Here is somewhat of a rhetorical question.

If I go into a restaurant that you typically eat before you pay, am I in sin from the time between I have ate and actually paid the bill? Because in that time I "owned" them money.

Most would say no because there is an (in this case unspoken) agreement that you will pay before a certain time (in the case before you walk out). If you pay for the service at the time when you agreed to pay for it, is it sinful? There are actually several things we use before we pay for- utility bills are the obvious example.



The analogy is imperfect. Because when you get into the restaurant to eat, you [i]already[/i] have money in your pocket or in your debit card enough to pay your food. You don't buy a meal for $15 if you only have a ten-dollar bill in your pocket. So it is not like you have no clue what you are going to pay your bill with when the meal is over--and are praying about it till the last minute. Doing this would be equal to tempting the Lord and is really irresponsible. When I don't have money I never go out to eat. It is unthinkable.

Deciding to buy a meal you can't afford is plain foolishness. You'll be greatly embarrassed when the waiter comes with the bill! How is then buying a house you can't afford not embarrassing AT THE END? When you spend 20 years to pay it back, fearing the loss of your job constantly so you can make that next payment? Or when you pay twice the amount of money it originally cost because of the mortgage? Or how about when it goes in default and the bank takes it away from you? I have made such mistakes in the past and I am still bearing bitter fruit from them.

Taking a loan to buy a house or a car is basically telling God you want something now--something the means for which He hasn't provided. It is like getting paid for a job you haven't done yet, or praise for a good work you haven't accomplished. It is shameful and demoralizing. Moreover, there is grief with it... because you have to pay the money with the interest for a long period of time after you have "bought" the house or the car. So it isn't really yours. It is the bank's, until you pay the last installment. And until then you are the bank's employee.

What is even more problematic is the fact that you can have [i]anything[/i] you want this way. Regardless of whether you can afford it or the Lord gives it to you. It is easy to spend money you haven't yet earned. The problem is you become dependent on the person who gives you the loan: "The rich rules over the poor, And the borrower is servant to the lender" (Proverbs 22:7). So you are becoming somebody's servant--to do his will!--only because you have not waited for the Lord to give you the means to make the purchase in His timing. It is like going to the restaurant and eating a $100-meal without having a penny in your pocket. And then, when they give you the bill and expect you to pay, you mumble that you actually didn't have any money and can help them do the dishes or mop the floor instead. This is absurd, shameless. Are these the good works people would see and glorify our Father in heaven?

"Okay," you'll say,"but I will make an agreement with them to do this and that over a period of time to earn the money and pay it back. They know I have no money, but they offer me a deal." But how do you know what is going to happen in the future? Where the Lord is going to call you? Or you are willing to trade the next ten years of your life for a car or an apartment--and be tied to them until you have paid for them in full?

Apart from our [i]unbelief[/i] that the Lord is sufficient for us and will provide our daily needs (not what we [i]want[/i] but what we [i]need[/i]), which unbelief leads us to take a loan, we are also effectively [i]trading our future for it[/i]. We're saying that we're going to be working for six months or for 20+ years to pay this loan back. And who do we think we are to say such a thing? Is this not arrogance?

Jas 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit";
Jas 4:14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.
Jas 4:15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that."
Jas 4:16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.

Quote:

PreachParsly wrote:
With that said, I believe we should be debt free if it's at all possible. If God called you to go to X, how hard would it be to go if you have a mountain of debt to pay?



Good point, brother.

 2008/6/19 18:25
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Amen, brother Slavyan.

Quote:
NotMe wrote:
When you spend 20 years to pay it back, fearing the loss of your job constantly so you can make that next payment?



This is a modern day slavery. Taking those money automaticly you are becoming slave. Slave to everything, mainly to the banks and the system, but not slave to God. Slave living in a constant fear. This is everything, but not the life that the Lord called us.

Quote:
NotMe wrote:
Apart from our unbelief that the Lord is sufficient for us and will provide our daily needs (not what we want but what we need), which unbelief leads us to take a loan, [b][u]we are also effectively trading our future for[/u] it.[/b]



Yes! That is true. The question that comes is: Is this life ours, that we could trade it and sell it?

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, [b]from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;[/b]
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

 2008/6/19 18:44Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

But when you rent an apartment and sign a lease, aren't you essentially doing the same thing as taking a loan? For the only way to get out of the lease is to pay the rest of what you owe for the year, or get somebody else to rent out your apartment.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2008/6/19 19:03Profile





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