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Miccah
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Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

I believe who God says He is. "I AM"


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Christiaan

 2008/6/19 14:09Profile
Thommy2
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Joined: 2008/6/3
Posts: 60
Wisconsin

 Re:

I believe who God says He is. "I AM" - Miccah

Jesus said I AM in John 8 and the Holy Spirit says nothing (audibly)...but if you lie to the Holy Spirit you are lying to God (Acts 5)...so if you believe in the God who says I AM, who are you refering to? One God? Three Seperate people Gods? Some manifesting magician who prays to Himself in the garden....even though He is right there with Himself?
Your confession of God is on the even cultists (Mormons, JWs, United Pentecostals, etc) would all say. I believe in I AM!!

So although we see God revealing Himself as "I AM" we see him using his chosen people to express a Godhead, where we see The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All equal, all one, all seperate/distinguished, but not seperated.... saying "I worship I AM" will come up short while discussing with people of other religions.
Rock and roll my fellow Wisconsinite and I hope you are drying out
Thommy


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Thom

 2008/6/19 15:17Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Thommy2 wrote:

Quote:


Jesus said I AM in John 8 and the Holy Spirit says nothing (audibly)...but if you lie to the Holy Spirit you are lying to God (Acts 5)...so if you believe in the God who says I AM, who are you refering to? One God? Three Seperate people Gods? Some manifesting magician who prays to Himself in the garden....even though He is right there with Himself?
Your confession of God is on the even cultists (Mormons, JWs, United Pentecostals, etc) would all say. I believe in I AM!!

So although we see God revealing Himself as "I AM" we see him using his chosen people to express a Godhead, where we see The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All equal, all one, all seperate/distinguished, but not seperated.... saying "I worship I AM" will come up short while discussing with people of other religions.
Rock and roll my fellow Wisconsinite and I hope you are drying out
Thommy




After reading your posting I have come to a conclusion...You must be from Madison :-)


Other then that, just because these cultist have hijacked "I AM" doesn't make my statement any less truthful. All we can do is proclaim the truth, the rest is the Lords, and the truth is "I AM" IS.

Try to grasp this. No amount of explination from man on the face of this earth will ever fully explain the trinity of God in His wholeness. In your attempts to come up with a clear and defined definition of the trinity, you will only serve to lead yourself, and others, down a rabbit hole that is difficult to climb back out of.

Why is this? Because our human minds cannot begin to comprehend the vastness of this question and the glory behind the answer. We can only understand the trinity in part, never fully grasping it. I believe that someday the answer will be revealed to us. But until that day comes, I will believe what the Lord says. To say that more is needed is not only wrong, it is dangerous.

Jehovah is Lord.


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Christiaan

 2008/6/19 17:15Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:


I think that's a huge problem though. If you are "sitting in a seat of authority" as Creflo was you need to know what you are going to say...especially when it comes to the essentials of our faith.


I agree, but, I think it is simply the reality of how many Christians, even orthodox ministers, have a misunderstanding of various doctrines... or at least have thought these things through. Frankly, I think ANY illustration one gives of the Trinity enters into some sort of theological error. For, there is nothing else in all this world that can be compared to the Godhead. There exists nothing else in this world that is triune (even us).


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Jimmy H

 2008/6/19 17:46Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

"EVEN US"?

Are we not Spirit, Soul and Body. Tripartite man.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Who is righteousness? 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Who are we in? Who is in us?

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Our Spirit is Christ; Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Ro 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

First part of the tripartite man. Spirit.

Second part; Soul-mind, where we learn, which is the center of our learning; This is where the Holy Spirit works that we might know; 1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Who is the Spirit of truth? John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Satan is the spirit of error, who used to control our soul-minds.

So we are delivered in Spirit by the Spirit of Christ that is in us. We are being delivered by the Holy Spirit of truth in our minds-souls. We will be delivered in Body by the resurrection power of the whole God Head, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, by whom we are sealed into this glorious salvation unto the manifestation of the son's of God.

Hence learn, that the almighty power of God sometimes works beyond all creature expectations, beyond all human probabilities, beyond all rational conjectures, to help and deliver his people in hopeless and helpless trouble.

What is the greatest of deliverance?

The Law kills us just like the ravenous beasts Paul faced and was delivered in Spirit,
and "doth", is delivering us in our soul-mind, and will be "Yet" delivered in our body which is already quickened to contain the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit of Truth our Teacher of this truth.

In Christ, our Spirit and life: Phillip


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Phillip

 2008/6/19 19:20Profile
rbanks
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Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Hey I'm new to posting anything buy I've decided to give it a try.

Many oneness will try to say that we trinitarians can't explain the trinity and accuse us of believing in 3 Gods. But the oneness people can't explain their position either without making Jesus the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost when the scriptures say plainly that Jesus is a separate person from the Father and yet is also one with the Father.

The bible does not fully explain the trinity neither does it explain oneness.

I thought I would give just a few scriptures even thought their are many more than these:

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Co 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We clearly must know from the bible that Jesus is the only way to God (The Father). No other name among heaven whereby we must be saved.

The bible clearly says that the Father is the one true God. It also says that the son and the Holy Ghost preceeds from the Father.

We receive the Holy Spirit because of the son, we receive the son from the Father.

We know that the word came from the Father and the Holy Spirit came from the Father but the Father derives from no one.

The Father is 1st, the son is 2nd, the Holy Ghost is 3rd in that order (all are deity, this we must agree)

I will stop for now. Thanks to all responsible for SI!!

 2008/6/19 21:19Profile









 Re:

I'm very excited that someone is asking questions like this. I hope this is helpful to the discussion and not too much like a mini-sermon.

The language of the trinity doctrine(s) seems sterile to me.
"Substance"? "Persons"? "Essence"?
It reminds me of politics. I would very much like to discuss this. But even more - I want to experience and have fellowship with God - NOT just talk about Him like He's not listening.

These foundational trinitarian words: "Person" "Substance" "Essence" "Being", I don't trust using these words to talk about God.

The word "Person" I find the least troublesome since Jesus is a man and the image of the invisible God. God may be more of "a person" than any of us are. He's definitely more of a Father than I am.

"Substance" sounds offensive to me. God will correct me if I am wrong - It just sounds blasphemous. God is spirit, right? Spiritual substance? Paul talks about spiritual bodies but God knows if they are made of anything. Even the things we consider to have substance are sustained by God's will and not by some quality they have. Rocks don't exist because of how hard they are. "Sub"-"Stance" sounds like something that definitely does not apply to God. As if God is "made of" a substance or has some kind of intangible foundation - spiritual or not.

The words "Essence" or "Being" I ran into reading about the Nicene creed and the so-called Arian controversy. "Essence" sounds like a totally made up word and concept. "Being" is almost ridiculous. The more I think about it the less likely I am to ever use it in a sentence as a noun.

Jesus talks about His unity with the Father. It's so beautiful. He talks about the unity of the ones God gave him. Think of the unity of the Lamb and His wife. "The two will become one flesh"! What's going to happen?! The love the Father and the Son have for eachother is a stronger bond of unity than pathetic words like "Being" and philosophical concepts like "essence".

I don't mean to offend anyone in here who uses these words but I imagine encountering the glory of God - like Daniel before the Lord (daniel ch. 10) and it's so powerful he falls asleep and the Lord touches him - Daniel's on his hands and knees, the love of God is being poured over him and he's trembling in weakness. What I don't imagine is experiencing God like that and having a reaction like "Wow... God is so... wow... Triune."

Personally, I wouldn't mind if I never heard the words "trinity" or "triune" ever again.

Love is a perfect bond of unity. When Jesus says that he and the Father are one I'm humbled by his child-like trust in his Father and his loving obedience. Jesus only said what the Father gave him to say. What was it like for that man Jesus when God made it known that He wanted him to say such a thing? What was the disciple whom Jesus loved thinking about when he wrote about "in the beginning was the word.."? I'm almost afraid to ask.

 2008/6/19 22:44
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re: benjoseph

Brother I appreciate your post and the beauty of language in expressing your love for God. I don't have much time but I would like to add another thought.

Jesus never acted independent of his Father. His love for the Father was supreme. He made the statement -He that hath seen me hath seen the Father - but He never said -I am the Father

He also said the Father was in Him and was doing the works and He that recieved me recieved the Father.

I have not found a scripture in the bible where it says to worship the trinity nor the oneness.

The trinity is man's way of trying to explain the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being God in three persons.

The oneness is also man's way of trying to explain God (in three manifestations) which really takes away from the person of the Father and the person of the Son which I think is dangerous!

Thanks again,
rbanks



 2008/6/20 0:10Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Thanks, Thommy2, for yet another worthwhile post. It's a relief after so many Lakeland threads.

This subject came up last night while talking with a brother. He asked, "what's the necessity of teaching 'x-and-y' doctrine if the thief on the cross was still saved in relative ignorance?"

That statement is a little presumptuous. Even the thief on the cross believed some important things: for instance, that Jesus has authority to pardon anyone He chooses after death. That's saying a lot about one's understanding of who Christ is.

My answer was that while some people are saved and sanctified despite their ignorance of certain subjects, others only realize they are not yet saved, or why they are not being sanctified so powerfully, after their ignorance or defiance to truth is exposed by clear, thorough teaching.

People sometimes debate the necessity of teaching the triune nature of God. Must one really grasp that Jesus is equal to the Father in His divinity? Consider: the man who denies the deity of Christ must believe a finite being was able to endure an infinite burden of guilt. Do the awesome math: how long will sinners be in hell? Forever. And that is justice. Yet Christ satisfied God's justice towards the church, removing what would have been an everlasting sentence. He accomplished this by His infinite worth. And who but God deserves to be worshiped? God says, "I will not give my glory to another." One cannot truly worship Jesus without accepting his deity.

These questions have huge ramifications. Have you ever asked the question, "What did the atonement of Christ's death accomplish?" That one question has had the greatest impact on my conversion and sanctification.

Though it is not yet complete, here is my trinitarian statement:

I believe in one almighty God, who exists without time or change, who dwells entirely only in Himself, yet is manifested throughout His creation. God is one essential being eternally comprised of three distinct persons, Father, Son, and Spirit.

The wisdom and purpose of God is summarized in the divine person of the Son, who is called the "Logic of God". Through the Son all things that are made were made, so that God created all things for His glory.

Before the foundation of the world, the Father elected a bride for the Son, a multitude no man can number chosen from amongst fallen sinners. To redeem His Church from the guilt of sin, it was necessary that the Son become an acceptable substitution in their place. In time the Son was conceived in the form of a man, Christ Jesus, by the Spirit's power, fully representing the Godhead bodily. His obedience and love to the Father was accomplished in His atoning, redeeming, propitiating death on the cross. The Father approved of the Son's substitutionary sacrifice on behalf of man, for having come in the true form of man, Jesus was a fitting representative of men; and as divine God, the Son was worthy and able to appease and bear the weight of the Father's wrath.

Christ Jesus was raised from mortal death by the power of the Father, Spirit, and Himself, to immortality. He ascended bodily to the right hand of the Father's presence in heaven and now sends forth the Spirit to convict, regenerate, sanctify, preserve, and empower His elect. The Spirit gives understanding, renewal, revelation, and glorification.

The Spirit glorifies the Father and Son; the Son glorifies the Father and sends forth the Spirit. The Father, Son, and Spirit, together glorify the one only God who alone is worthy of worship forever. Amen.

 2008/6/20 2:07Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

I'm enjoying the thoughts of others, here is a few more thoughts to add.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

2Ch 15:3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law.

Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
1 John 5:20
      20. Summary of our Christian privileges.
      is come--is present, having come. "HE IS HERE--all is full of Him--His incarnation, work, and abiding presence, is to us a living fact" [ALFORD].
      given us an understanding--Christ's, office is to give the inner spiritual understanding to discern the things of God.
      that we may know--Some oldest manuscripts read, "(so) that we know."
      him that is true--God, as opposed to every kind of idol or false god (1Jo 5:21). Jesus, by virtue of His oneness with God, is also "He that is true" (Re 3:7).
      even--"we are in the true" God, by virtue of being "in His Son Jesus Christ."
      This is the true God--"This Jesus Christ (the last-named Person) is the true God" (identifying Him thus with the Father in His attribute, "the only true God," Joh 17:3, primarily attributed to the Father).
      and eternal life--predicated of the Son of God; ALFORD wrongly says, He was the life, but not eternal life. The Father is indeed eternal life as its source, but the Son also is that eternal life manifested, as the very passage (1Jo 1:2) which ALFORD quotes, proves against him. Compare also 1Jo 5:11,13. Plainly it is as the Mediator of ETERNAL LIFE to us that Christ is here contemplated. The Greek is, "The true God and eternal life is this" Jesus Christ, that is, In believing in Him we believe in the true God, and have eternal life. The Son is called "He that is TRUE," Re 3:7, as here. This naturally prepares the way for warning against false gods (1Jo 5:21). Jesus Christ is the only "express image of God's person" which is sanctioned, the only true visible manifestation of God. All other representations of God are forbidden as idols. Thus the Epistle closes as it began (1Jo 1:1-2).

The only way one can be in the true God and have the true God living in them is to be in Jesus Christ and have Jesus Christ dwelling in them. One cannot know God apart from Jesus Christ who is the supreme sacrifice for our sins, the image of the invisible God whereby we and all things were created. The WORD is the image of God. In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God. All things were created by Him and all must be regenerated by Him in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

In all 27 books in the new testament the apostles had opportunity to explain the Godhead by saying God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost as some trinitarians do, but they never did. Most books start out with God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Most of the time they only mention the Father and the Son. They clearly wanted us to understand that the only way to receive God or know God was through and by his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God never apart from his Father. One cannot honor or worship God the Father apart from his Son. Jesus said all power in heaven and in earth is given unto me (had to be given by his Father). 1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jesus Christ is not a son of God, He is the Son of God. No one else holds this title, to love, worship, serve Him is worshiping God the father because they are one. They are united with the same nature, same Spirit. Only the Father is greater than the Son and He gave everything to his Son. He that hath the Son hath everlasting life. One day the Son is going to bring his kingdom and his bride to the Father.

Their is no competition, I belong to Christ and Christ belongs to God. Because I'm in the Spirit worshiping God through Jesus Christ it doesn't matter if I say Father (which I love to do because God is My Father) or Lord Jesus (which I love to do because he is my Lord and Savior) or Holy Ghost/Spirit ( which I love to do because he is the spirit of Christ -the reality of God living in me), it is the same as giving loyalty to the one true living God.

Thanks again,
rbanks

 2008/6/20 11:42Profile





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