SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : When All Men Speak Well of You ~ Hammond

Print Thread (PDF)

PosterThread
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 When All Men Speak Well of You ~ Hammond

[b]WHEN ALL MEN SPEAK WELL OF YOU[/b]


[b][i]Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false
prophets.[/i][/b] Luke 6:26

It is interesting how, in spite of all the warnings in Scripture against gossip, slander, and tale bearing, just how much stock we tend to place in people's opinions. It is said that where there is smoke there is fire. However, the smoke may be no more than dust and hot air.

As Mark Twain observed: "A lie can travel halfway across the world while truth is still getting its boots on!"

The great Baptist preacher, C.H. Spurgeon, warned: "Believe not half you hear; repeat not half you believe. When you hear an evil report, halve it, then quarter it, and say nothing about the rest of it."

The great Reformer, John Calvin, declared: "No greater injury can be inflicted upon men than to ruin their reputation."

Thomas Brooks taught: "Of all the members in the body, there is none so serviceable to Satan as the tongue."

C. H. Spurgeon wrote: "The more prominent you are in Christ's service, the more certain are you to be the butt of calumny. I have long ago said farewell to my character. I lost it in the early days of my ministry by being a little more zealous than suited a slumbering age. And I have never been able to regain it except in the sight of Him who judges all the earth, and in the hearts of those who love me for my work's sake."

John Calvin wrote: "There is nothing more slippery or loose than the tongue."

The Scriptures command us [b][i]"to slander no-one, to be peaceable and considerate and to show true humility toward all men."[/i][/b] Titus 3:2

[b][i]"Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice."[/i][/b] Ephesians 4:31

Yet gossip remains prevalent within the church, and the arrogance, bitterness, jealousy and malice that so often accompany it generally remains unchallenged.

King David wrote: [b][i]"Whoever slanders his neighbour in secret, him will I put to silence; whoever has haughty eyes and a proud heart, him will I not endure."[/i][/b] Psalm 101:5

Today, however, it is more common to publish the slanders than to silence or rebuke them.

Few seem to consider that whoever gossips to you will gossip of you.

The teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ are very clear. [b][i]"In everything do to others what you would have them do to you. For this sums up the Law and the prophets."[/i][/b] Matthew 7:12

When we pray we are to say: [b][i]"Forgive us our debts as we have also forgiven our debtors…. For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."[/i][/b] Matthew 6:12-15

[b][i]"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."[/i][/b] Matthew 5:11-12

[b][i]"Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil because of the Son of Man. Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets…Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets."[/i][/b] Luke 6:22-26

Why then do we continue to place such value upon people's opinions? After all, mass murdering tyrants like Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung have been [i]"Man of the Year"[/i] of Time Magazine .

[i][b]"Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I was still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ."[/b][/i] Galatians 1:10

Our Lord Jesus Christ warned us: [b][i]"Many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other."[/i][/b]
Matthew 24:10

Even one of Jesus' hand picked disciples, Judas, who was trusted as the treasurer of "The Twelve" took money from the high priests to betray our Lord Jesus Christ into their hands (Luke 22:8; John 13:21).

When Moses sent out twelve scouts to explore the land, ten returned with a negative and defeatist report and [b][i]"made the whole community grumble"[/i][/b] to the point of even wanting to stone Joshua and Caleb (Numbers 14:36). Only Joshua and Caleb, of the twelve, came back with a good report. The Lord severely judged the ten complainers and mightily blessed the faithful Joshua and Caleb (Numbers 16:38)

[b]Criticising Calvin[/b]
The great French Reformer, [b]John Calvin[/b], transformed Geneva through his preaching, teaching, writings and Academy. Under John Calvin's ministry, Geneva became the intellectual centre and hub of the Reformation, a place of religious freedom and refuge for Protestants fleeing persecution. Geneva also became a sending base for evangelists, pastors and missionaries who established literally thousands of Reformed churches throughout Europe and further afield.

Yet historians have noted that: [i]"No good man has ever had a worse press; no Christian theologian is so often scorned; so regularly attacked."[/i]

Throughout his life Calvin faced major opposition, often from fellow Protestants and other theologians: [i]"whose objections to Calvin were incessant and, usually, unpleasant."[/i] Even today, there are those who maintain that John Calvin was a vicious tyrant who oppressed the people under an unbearable dictatorship. And that he had people executed for disagreeing with him.

Yet, the facts are: Calvin never ruled Geneva. The city was not a totalitarian society, but a republic with elections and dissent. Calvin held no civil office, he could neither arrest nor punish any citizen, nor could he appoint or dismiss any official. (To argue that his eloquence and logic constituted tyranny, is to invent a new standard.)

History records that refugees from all over Europe flooded to Geneva to find the freedom there that they were not able to enjoy in their home countries. Under Calvin, Geneva developed into Europe's greatest concentration of printers and publishing firms. It became the epicentre of the movement for freedom world wide. Yet Calvin continues to be slandered by ignorant and prejudiced people.

[b]Libel Against Luther[/b]
Similarly, the great German Reformer, [b]Martin Luther[/b], continues to be slandered to this day. Whole websites are dedicated to depicting Luther as an anti-Semite who laid the foundations for the holocaust!

The accusation that Martin Luther was an anti-Semite, responsible for massacres, reveals an ignorance of history. Luther was pro-Christ and he was zealous in evangelism. For decades he lovingly and patiently reached out to the Jewish people in his area with the Gospel. In 1523, Luther accused Catholics of being unfair to Jews in treating them [i]"as if they were dogs"[/i]. Luther was outraged and declared that such mistreatment made it even more difficult for Jews to convert to Christ.

Luther wrote [i]"I would request and advise that one deal gently with the Jews…if we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them, not by papal law, but by the Law of Christian love. We must receive them cordially, and permit them to trade and work with us, hear our Christian teaching and witness our Christian life. If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either."[/i]

Fifteen years later, however, the persistent rejection of Christ and repeated blasphemies of those Jewish people in his community, provoked Luther to write: [b]"On the Jews and their Lies."[/b] In this pamphlet, Luther wrote against the [i]"madness and blindness that blasphemes Christ"[/i] in the Rabbinic teachings. Luther declared that he could not [i]"have any fellowship or patience with obstinate blasphemers and those who defame our dear Saviour."[/i] These blasphemies included describing our Lord Jesus Christ as [i]"the bastard son"[/i] of [i]"that whore Mary"[/i], and even worse. Blasphemy was a civil crime. Luther taught that to tolerate such blasphemy was to share in the guilt for it. Therefore, he proposed measures of [i]"sharp mercy"[/i] which included confiscating all Jewish literature which was blasphemous and prohibiting Rabbis to teach such blasphemy.

However, to quote these reactions of Luther without explaining their local context of opposing the repeated blasphemies of Jewish individuals in his community and then to project guilt for the continent-wide, anti-Christian holocaust of World War II upon the great 16th Century Reformer is ludicrous. How can any Christian Reformer of the 16th Century be blamed for the evils perpetrated by humanists (who clearly rejected his teachings) nearly 400 years after his death!

Hitler was a disciple of Nietzsche (the philosopher who declared: "God is dead") - not Luther. Luther was not an anti-Semite. His arguments against Jewish individuals were theological, not biological or cultural. He was speaking out against blasphemy and heresy, not opposing an entire race or nation of people.

It is most disturbing that such a humble and God fearing man, who, against all odds, gave to the church and the world the Bible, freely available in the common tongue; who introduced congregational singing; championed justification by God's Grace, received by faith, on the basis of the finished work of Christ; who stood for sola Scriptura - that Scripture alone is the ultimate authority; and who was so wonderfully used of the Lord to bring about the greatest Biblical Reformation and birth of freedom that the world had ever known, could be the target of such vicious slander.

The Scriptures implore us: [b][i]"Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the Law and judges it."[/i][/b] James 4:11

[b]Malice and a Contentious Spirit[/b]
There is a disturbing tendency throughout the church, seen regularly in homes where they have [i]"roast pastor for Sunday lunch"[/i], to set ourselves up continually as judges of those who are better than us. Many have the gift of criticism and a ministry of discouragement. Few recognise how seriously their casual criticism, of what are often trivial matters, erodes and undermines the ministries of those called of God to service.

[b][i]"Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy and slander of every kind."[/i][/b] 1 Peter 2:1

As the Scripture so plainly shows us, slander of every kind is inseparable from malice, deceit, hypocrisy and envy. (The middle letter of pride is "I", the middle letter of lie is "I", the middle letter of sin is "I", so too the middle letter of Lucifer is "I".) Self centred pride is often at the root of our desire to slander great men and women of the past, and to drag down others whom God has raised up.

[b]Jonathan Edwards[/b], one of America's greatest theologians, and a man most closely associated with the Great Evangelical Awakening, was actually dismissed by his own church for applying Biblical discipline. The elders of his church would not accept his position that unbelievers should not be allowed to participate in The Lord's Supper. In his farewell message, Edwards declared: [i]"…avoid contention. A contentious people will be a miserable people…heat of spirit, evil speaking and things of the like…directly contrary to the spirit of Christianity…watch against a contentious spirit…"[/i]

[b]Condemning Carey[/b]
The father of modern missions, [b]William Carey[/b], and his co-worker, John Marshman, had to endure vicious and unjust criticisms from young new missionaries who came [i]"to help"[/i] at the mission base in Serampore, India. Many of these new volunteers actually split from the Serampore mission and spent an inordinate amount of time slandering William Carey and his co-workers (the controversy lasted thirteen years). So much so that the Baptist Missionary Society in England actually turned against William Carey for a time.

Writing of this, Carey said: [i]"the evil they have done is, I fear, irreparable; and certainly the whole might have been prevented by a little frank conversation with either of us; and a hundredth part of that self- denial which I found necessary to exercise for the first few years of the mission would have prevented this awful rupture…but now we are traduced and the church rent by the very men who came to be our helpers…judge for yourselves whether it is comely that a man who has laboriously and disinterestedly served the mission so many years should be arraigned and condemned without a hearing by a few men who have just arrived, one of whom had not been a month in the country before he joined the senseless outcry."[/i]

[b]Slandering Samuel Marsden[/b]
On a recent speaking tour to Australia, a couple of people commented on my including Samuel Marsden in The Greatest Century of Missions. They frankly admitted that they had never before heard anything good about Samuel Marsden, but only that he was a vicious [i]"hanging judge"[/i] and [i]"religious hypocrite"[/i].

In fact, Samuel Marsden was a pioneer missionary and founding father of Australia and New Zealand. He was a man who upheld justice impartially, and who diligently preached the Gospel. Throughout his life he remained a humble and generous Christian who laid the foundations for the Christian Church in Australia and New Zealand. Although he came to Australia as a chaplain to the convict colony of New South Wales, the Governor compelled him to also be the magistrate. Combining both demanding vocations in one person involved Marsden in one controversy after another. Samuel tried his utmost to provide for the prisoners, to establish a school for orphans, and to right the wrongs suffered by Aborigines.

His attempts to uphold principles of justice placed his life in danger and he endured many threats to his life. On one occasion, he travelled to England to call the attention of the government to the unacceptable conditions and to secure intervention. He presented these grievances to King George III himself.

Samuel Marsden had a great missionary vision which also extended to bringing the Gospel of Christ to the cannibals of New Zealand. Despite vicious disputes between some of the missionaries answerable to him, and relentless criticism, Samuel Marsden conducted the first public worship service in New Zealand, interceded between two warring tribes, and introduced education, standards of justice, and law and order to the country.

It was his sad experience to continually be a victim of malicious and unfounded charges throughout his time in Australia. His fearless denunciation of sin made him numerous enemies, but the Lord vindicated Samuel Marsden. Within 31 years of his first service in New Zealand, 98% of the Maoris had embraced Christianity.

[b]Harrassing Hudson Taylor[/b]
In 1865, [b]Hudson Taylor[/b] prayed for 24 [i]"willing, skilful labourers"[/i] for his new China Inland Mission. Willing and skilful they may have been, but four of these new recruits also brought dissension and controversy. Soon these dissidents had poisoned the fellowship with their increasing bitterness and resentment. After two years of backbiting and disruption, Hudson Taylor had to dismiss the ringleader, Louis Nicole, from the mission. Other troublemakers left with him.

More unrelenting slander and lies undermined the work of the China Inland Mission. One of the accusations against Hudson Taylor was that he was [i]"too familiar with the young ladies."[/i] Hudson and Maria Taylor kissed some of the girls on the forehead before they went off to bed. The ladies themselves denied any inappropriate behaviour, but still the complaint reached London, and for a time led to a fall in support for the mission.

As Hudson Taylor wrote: [i]"If the Spirit of God works mightily, we may be sure that the spirit of evil will also be active."[/i] The China Inland Mission was engulfed in opposition, dissension, controversy, fire and death from the beginning. Their mission house in Yangchow was attacked and set on fire. Furious persecution engulfed them. Storms of criticism and controversy erupted. However, in spite of constant controversies, the number of CIM missionaries grew, in time becoming the largest mission organisation in the world. By the end of Hudson's long life, the very mission organisations that had belittled and ridiculed his methods had begun adopting many of them.

[b]Presumed Guilty[/b]
On his Zambezi expedition, pioneer missionary explorer David Livingstone was afflicted by interpersonal conflicts amongst his team leading to everyone abandoning him in the field, even his own brother Charles. By the time he returned to England seven years later, Livingstone found that his disgruntled ex-co-workers had so spread an ill report against him, that no-one even came out to welcome him back. He was ostracised. Presumed guilty without even a chance to defend himself.

[b]From Outcasts to Textbooks[/b]
The greatest Baptist preacher of all time, Charles Spurgeon, was actually the target of vicious and slanderous attacks by the Baptist Union of his day. Now his books are textbooks of Baptist colleges and his statue stands outside the Baptist Union headquarters.

George Whitefield, one of the greatest evangelists of all time and a key figure in the Great Evangelical Awakening, was actually excluded from the Church of England that he had served so faithfully. Today the Church of England in South Africa has named its college after George Whitefield.

[b]A Price of Success[/b]
Dr James Kennedy in his book, Delighting God, writes "if you rise just a little bit above the common herd, if you achieve just a modicum more success than your neighbours, most surely those barbs of criticism are going to be shot your way.

[i]"To avoid criticism: do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." "There is no defence against reproach - except obscurity."[/i]

Delighting God quotes one wise old man [i]"if I tried to read, much less answer all the criticisms made of me, and all the attacks levelled against me, this office would have to be closed to all other business. I do the best I know how, the very best I can, and I mean to keep on doing this, down to the very end. If the end brings me out all wrong, ten angels swearing I had been right would make no difference. If the end brings me out alright, then what is said against me now will not amount to anything."[/i]

[b]An Opportunity to Glorify God[/b]
There is no doubt that adversity builds character. A faith that can't be tested, can't be trusted. Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors.

But unjustified criticism is still better than flattery - and less dangerous! We can always benefit - even from the most unbalanced criticism. What man means for evil, God can use for good. (Genesis 50:20)

[i][b]"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."[/b][/i] Romans 8:28

Such trials should drive us to prayer, humble us and deepen our devotional life as we search the Scriptures and ask: [i]"What is God saying to me through this?"[/i]

It can also enable us to empathise with and comfort others who suffer such injustices.

Christians suffering unjust criticism should find opportunities to glorify God and to witness for Christ. Ultimately, God's opinion and approval is the only One that counts. It is He whom we should continually be seeking to please.

And one thing that Christ requires is that we forgive those who sin against us - unconditionally, wholeheartedly. We who have been forgiven much should love much. [i][b]"Blessed are you when men hate you and when they exclude you, and revile you and cast out your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy. For indeed your reward is great in heaven, for in like manner their fathers did to the prophets…Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for so did their fathers to the false prophets."[/b][/i] Luke 6:22-26

[b]It’s Not The Critic That Counts[/b]
As United States President Theodore Roosevelt wrote:
"It is not the critic that counts
nor the man who points out how the strong man stumbled;
nor where the doer of deeds could have done better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena;
whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood;
who strives valiantly;
who errs and comes short again and again;
who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions
and spends himself in a worthy cause;
who at best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and;
who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while doing greatly,
so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls
who know neither victory nor defeat!"

[b]A Test of Character[/b]
Everything in life is a test of character. Extreme situations expose and bring out the best, or the worst, in people. A person's character is accurately measured by their reaction to unfairness or bad treatment. The measure of a person's character can be seen by the size of those things which upset him. The true flavour of a tea bag is only tasted after it has been placed in hot water, and so it is with ourselves. Our reputation is what men think we are. Our character is what God knows we are. And this is only revealed under extreme crisis situations.

So, when troubles and tribulations come, when you are insulted, excluded, reviled and mistreated, do what our Lord Jesus commanded; [i][b]"rejoice in that day and leap for joy!"[/b][/i]

On the other hand; [i][b]"Woe to you when all men speak well of you…"[/b][/i] Luke 6:26




Dr Peter Hammond
[url=http://www.frontline.org.za/INDEX.HTM]Frontline Fellowship[/url]

This article is taken from the book [url=http://www.christianlibertybooks.co.za/detail.asp?ID=1394]Character Assassins[/url] by Peter Hammond and Brian Abshire


([i]Italics\Embolden extant[/i])


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/6/16 23:13Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: When All Men Speak Well of You ~ Hammond

Thanks for this one. I don't know what I am experiencing more of - encouragement or conviction. I've got a nice little balance going on here :)

Bro. Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/6/17 0:04Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: When All Men Speak Well of You ~ Hammond

Quote:
Few recognise how seriously their casual criticism, of what are often trivial matters, erodes and undermines the ministries of those called of God to service.



I am guilty.

Thanks for this article brother.

The pen truly is mightier than the sword.


_________________
TJ

 2008/6/17 1:07Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: When All Men Speak Well of You ~ Hammond

Quote:
I don't know what I am experiencing more of - encouragement or conviction. I've got a nice little balance going on here :)



Same here, that tension ...

Must thank our sister Joy (Roniya) for bringing this site into view elsewhere. There are some very good articles and the like there. For instance a fuller treatment on Luther;

[url=http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/libel_againstluther.htm]Libel Against Luther[/url]

That was expressed in part here. Very informative and helpful.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/6/17 9:12Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: When All Men Speak Well of You ~ Hammond

Seems timely, this article ...

Judging and criticism, tricky business. One of the reoccurring themes over the years is just to wonder if we have our facts straight. Many surprises can be found from hearing 'opposing' views or just reconsiderations. Another example;

[url=http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/were_anabaptists_persecuted_for%20_faith.htm]WERE THE ANABAPTISTS PERSECUTED FOR THEIR FAITH?[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/6/18 23:39Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

You know, I've tried to make it a habit to not talk unreasonably bad of anyone; that is, not my enemies, nor God's enemies, nor preachers I disagree with (and I have failed here greviously). If someone is a false teacher, they are a false teacher and they are already exposed. Notice that Jesus never once spoke publically in a derogatory way of Judas the traitor, He never even mentioned his literal name to John and the others, but instead made a reference to him. I know that Paul named Demas and Alexander and John called out Diotrophes but it never turned into a personal tirade of who was saved and who wasn't saved. Brethren, there is already a ton of info on any teacher presently in the limelight...and even more info on those who have already passed on.

The reason I would rather point someone to the Bible is because in my zeal for truth I often have a difficult time differentiating the thin lines between gossip and warning. Spurgeon once said the best way to prove a stick is crooked is to simply lay a straight one beside it. I think we often replace this simple procedure by much talking and storytelling, and by indulging in hearsay and ad hominem attacks and lambasting the crookedness to such an extreme that we would attempt to warp the curve even more if we knew it could better make our point.

Brothers and sisters, God has not called us to this. I say it is enough to simply uphold truth without putting forth scathing accusations and critical judgments. It is enough to lay down a perfectly straight stick, walk away and be done with it. I know that when I am laying in the dust at the feet of Christ, I have no strength to unduly criticise others...even under the guise of "warning the brethren"; it all suddenly vanishes and God gives us the wisdom and grace to not be in the car while it goes over the cliff.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/6/19 0:12Profile









 Re: Lambs and wolves, and the Shepherds Rod.



Paul, I suppose your post makes sense in a theological discussion, or forum."

Quote:
If someone is a false teacher, they are a false teacher, and they are already exposed"

, meaning that there is no sense to expose them, they are what they are. What you fail to see, is that many people, do not see what you see, and are vary naive and young. Jesus calls them Lambs. You may have a bit more maturity than they, and if they may not see error, or the bit of poison in a doctrine, or movement, and consume the lie with the good, then it will harm them, or maybe destroy them.


I suppose to the theologian, it is all about "making a point", and possibly "Warping the curve to make a better point", but in real life, people become a part of Heaven, or a part of Hades, depending on their faith; IE, what they believe.


Spurgeon was a Bible teacher and preacher, within the confines of a church, mostly behind a pulpit. He was speaking, about your "strait stick" analogy, about feeding the church with truth, maybe out of Isaiah 40, vss. 3-6...."He will make the crooked ways strait". He was not necessarily talking about confronting wolves, and heretical doctrine.


"He, {Paul,]
never turned it into a personal "tirade" about who was saved, and who was not saved."


I am sorry Paul, that is exactly what he stood for and "turned it into." It is exactly the reason for confronting false teachers and Prophets, because if you followed their teachings, you would not be [b]Saved,[/b], but as Jude puts it, "twice dead", and Paul, again, "If any man draws back into [i]perdition, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.[/i].


You seem to cast off the biblical examples given, as rare instances. Paul knew better. read acts 20, where he promised that "grievous wolves would enter, NOT sparing the flock. Read 1 timothy, 2 timothy, Titus, and more, in Jude, and 1 peter, and 2 peter....where it is promised that these conflicts would occur, and the command of the Shepherd to protect.


It may be a "guise of warning the brethren" to you, but it certainly is not for me, or the Apostolic voice as portrayed in the above scripture.


Is the "stick" you are laying down, "and walking away and be done with it?", the Shepherds Rod, or is it your own theological point?, with no need for anymore discussion?


God has called me, and many of you, to Shepherd his people, and feed them with truth. If this were not so, why all the hub bub about Bentley? Why the hundreds of posts, from around the world, and even a few by Sermonindex moderators? Truth happens to confront evil, and expose it, like a hidden pit of old, that was used to catch animals, as they fell into it unexpectedly. Sermonindex posted many threads, and I am grateful, as I bet many were , and are protected now, that they [i]SEE[/i] that this is not Bible, nor Holy Spirit, and is to be avoided!



Theologians make points, and argue them, and often quite civilized about it. When the wolf enters into your yard, with your playing children, you must confront him, and drive him away. This is that.


So thank you Sermonindex for posting these threads. They have saves lives.


Your allegory "of it all vanishing" as we lay at His feet, is profoundly naive. It will never vanish. Satan does not sleep, and constantly wars against the offspring of the Lamb. He will come at you 1000s of ways and angles, and those awake will respond, for if you Love Him, you will feed his Lambs, and that means green Pastures, safe from the wolves, where they can lay down, and rest.

 2008/6/19 8:52
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Straight talk

Quote:
You know, I've tried to make it a habit to not talk unreasonably bad of anyone; that is, not my enemies, nor God's enemies, nor preachers I disagree with (and I have failed here greviously).



[i]Unreasonably bad[/i]. That says much brother, especially of underlying sentiment and perhaps what might be constituted the 'bite' of criticism.

The article here seems almost contradictory and creates that tension that we both mentioned of conviction and encouragement. It seems on the one hand with the verses noted to enforce a sobering effect on what escapes our lips\pens, on the other it also simultaneously responds to the character assassination of men of God who later turned out to be vindicated. It seems again contradictory, paradoxical almost.

A search through the site would bear out many good articles and messages on this matter of judging and\or criticism and because it seems to be up front and center at the moment in a variety of postings would hate to see it just get nowhere, running in circles without any resolution.

There was a time not too far in the past when straight talk was just straight talk. I think we may have become infected with the recent disease of this present age's ideals of tolerance and offendeness. It may have attached itself by proximity and in many cases become the blight of the church by a misconstruing of what pride, humility, soberness, love (for ones enemies as well as Brethren) is supposed to produce. In a word it is "niceness". If it is not 'nice' it is critical and fault finding. If it is not 'nice' then we should stay silent. It goes to such extremes that even great injustice is shouted down but more often flipped around to misconstrue and confuse motivation and intention of the speaker\writer for personal attack. It gets ever more muddy because it can be difficult to ascertain and often can contain both.

Sometimes I must wonder if we are just too analytical and didactic for our own good when it comes to these things.

The fear of man. And what this article points out in grand fashion; [i]When All Men Speak Well of You[/i]. How tied the two are together.

Intent to injure or to make straight that which is crooked? the example our brother made by laying a straight stick alongside it. Have seen here over the years a wrong grasp of [i]the fear of man[/i] that puts one in the notion of a badge of supposed courage and contentment that says in essence '[i]I don't care![/i] rather forcefully and intimates "God is on my side", when reality and truth demands the answer to the question; "[i]But are you on Gods side?[/i]". It is not always so overtly put, but is hidden by and enforced with the 'backing of scripture'.

Just a sampling of the messages available here on SI will find much straight talk and plain speaking. A.W. Tozer never minced words and yet also did not carry an air of superiority, 'lording it over'(1Pe 5:3) nor the sentimental pleasantries of this days 'niceties'.

What I keep finding is a disconnect that says inwardly; "See, this vindicates me" when it is meant to convict us of our sharp thrusting of the sword into the wrong places. Generally speaking, it is often the defending that unmasks us and proves us at the least spurious and the worst guilty of resting on false premises. A good example was a recent dialouge mentioned by our brother Robert elsewhere;

[i]I want to stress the point that you can in fact tell a lot about a person by the way they present themselves. As a youth pastor I have heard things over the years from the girls like, "that's all I have to wear" and what they try to wear is as provocative as can be. Guys try to wear the muscle shirts and earrings and act like it means nothing. Try to act like I'm a pharisee for saying something about it. "Oh really? If it means nothing to you then why are you getting so angry when someone brings it up?"[/i]

You know, I started out here with just some observations and now realize how impossible it is to codify it all into a tidy finish. Maybe what is underlying much of it is just that we do not need all these embellishments. One is to give this treatment to a matter by pouring in extra accusation of the "I know your type, I now what your thinking" mentality. The opposite is to bow under to perceived pressure and embellish with 'niceties'.

An example of the latter is what came across the in-box this morning. I thought or rather had hoped that this thing was yet dead, but it is [i][b]madness[/b][/i]. The content is madness as to the happenings, but there is this embellishment of "niceness" again that seems to want to protect something of it's own interest ... Ah, caught in my own analytical analysis! The article;

[b]Bam! Pow! When Prayer Ministry Gets Violent[/b]

[i]Lakeland Revival leader Todd Bentley’s unusual prayer methods have triggered questions about Holy Spirit etiquette.[/i]

For weeks the blogosphere has been sizzling with comments, pro and con, about the unusual ministry style of Todd Bentley, the leader of the Lakeland Revival in Florida. Thousands of people have watched the tattooed evangelist shout [i]“Bam! Bam!”[/i] as he prays for the sick and interviews those who say they were instantly healed.

Nobody could ever accuse Bentley of lacking zeal. And he always gives Jesus the credit for the healings he announces on God TV every night. But he has come under fire because of video clips from a sermon in which he says the Holy Spirit told him to use violent means to heal people.

The sermon, preached in Lakeland and posted on YouTube, features Bentley demonstrating how he (1) banged a woman’s crippled legs “like a baseball bat” on a stage; (2) tackled, mounted and choked a man to free him from a demon; (3) shoved a Chinese man to the ground to pray for him (causing the man to lose a tooth); (4) kicked an older woman in the face with his biker boot to heal her; and (5) “leg-dropped” a pastor—a professional wrestling tactic, popularized by Hulk Hogan, in which the aggressor jumps in the air and lands on his opponent with one leg outstretched.

Quote:
“Why do we think that more bodies on the floor equals ‘more anointing’—especially when the evangelist shoves people to the ground or slaps them silly?”





When we asked Bentley about his unorthodox methods, he assured Charisma that none of the people were hurt and that many were healed. He also explained that British evangelist Smith Wigglesworth, a legend in the hall of fame of Pentecostal preachers, used similar methods.

So if Wigglesworth healed a man by punching him in the stomach, and Bentley sees similar results by using techniques borrowed from the World Wrestling Entertainment, does that mean we should teach all altar workers to become more aggressive?

I know that people have been healed in the meetings in Lakeland. I know of a woman from South Carolina who was healed of cystic fibrosis while sitting in one of Bentley’s services. (She was never touched by anyone.) I also know a man from California who was healed of sleep apnea while watching the Lakeland revival on television. Jesus is most definitely still in the healing business.

I also know that Bentley is not performing Hulk Hogan stunts from the stage in Lakeland every night. But because his comments about violent prayer have been so widely broadcast, we need to call a timeout and make it clear that hitting people is wrong, period. Bentley’s teaching on unorthodox prayer methods should include a disclaimer: “DON’T TRY THIS AT HOME.” Here are three reasons why:

1. The Holy Spirit is gentle. Jesus boldly drove the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip. But when He prayed for sick people, there is no record of Him head-banging or leg-dropping anyone. He rebuked evil spirits authoritatively, but He never hit, slapped, choked, mounted or kicked a person. He was meek, which means He knew how to control His strength, and He never threw His weight around.

When He commissioned His followers to heal the sick, Jesus told them to “lay” hands on them (Mark 16:18). Since gentleness is part of the fruit of the Holy Spirit (along with kindness—see Gal. 5:22-23), any ministry we do should be tempered with mercy and concern.

2. If we minister in the flesh, we will reap flesh. Several years ago I was standing near the stage in a large meeting when a visiting evangelist said he wanted to pray for all the ministers in the room. Immediately some ushers yanked me up to the platform and the man of God raced over to “pray” for me. Before I knew it, I was assaulted in the name of the Lord.

Whack! The guy hit me so hard that I fell down and held my face in my hands to hide my grimace. The skin on my neck was stinging. When I finally went back to my seat, a friend ran over to congratulate me, saying, “Wow, I saw you go down under the power!” I had to grit my teeth and ask the Lord to help me forgive the preacher who inflicted pain instead of a holy impartation.

Why do we think that more bodies on the floor equals “more anointing”—especially when the evangelist shoves people to the ground or slaps them silly? To build a ministry on such foolish theatrics is to trust in the arm of the flesh.

3. Somebody’s going to get hurt. We reported last week that a Tennessee man sued his charismatic church because its pastoral staff did not provide the proper “catchers” when he fell down during a prayer meeting last year. Matthew Lincoln of Knoxville said he struck the hard floor of the sanctuary with his head and aggravated a disc problem in his back, resulting in the need for surgery.

I don’t know the specifics of the situation in Knoxville, Tenn., and it may be that this church has done everything possible to provide a caring atmosphere in their meetings. Plus, the man suing the church does not say anyone hit him or knocked him over. But serious accidents are bound to happen if we don’t stress the importance of ministering with gentleness and wisdom.

In our zany charismatic world we often let our zeal run wild. I’ve been in services in which all kinds of injuries happened. Once I watched a 300-pound man fall on a frail woman. I’ve seen heads hit metal chairs. I’ve seen evangelists step on people’s arms and legs. We may say the Holy Spirit is moving, but—more often than we want to admit—our chaos may be a sign of our immaturity.

Please understand me. I desperately want the power of God to invade our churches. I’ve been in meetings in which the Lord’s glory was so thick that no one could stand up. I have felt the weight of His presence fall like a blanket on a congregation. And I remember falling to the floor when I got within four feet of a humble Indian preacher who barely touched people on the forehead when he prayed for them.

We don’t have to force things to happen. God’s power is real. May we never settle for a man-made imitation.

J. Lee Grady


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/6/19 9:16Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Hi Brothertom,

I think I should say that in no way am I shy to offend or call sin sin or reprove error. Stick around these forums long enough and you'll see. I would cease to serve God if this wasn't so. It may interest you to know I was an AG youth pastor for some years and was quite unpopular with many of the kids' parents. Some of my sermons were heard with much apprehension even by my own pastor and his wife, which was part of the reason why I was eventually removed and the youth group dissolved. If you thought my post somehow condoned heresy and error (or was lacksidaisical in how to handle it), I really don't think you know me. Brother, I am not as "profoundly naive" as you may think. But you are free to season your posts however you wish; only know that by inserting these little barbs you greatly hinder your own cause here in the forums. I can assure you, dear brother, we are on the same side when it comes to error tolerance.

As for Spurgeon, the "straight stick" analogy was from his exposition on Hebrews 1:7. Here is text from which it was taken:

[i]"If you want to judge the wickedness of men, you need not set yourself to do it in the first place. Live a holy life, and you will judge the ungodly. I have heard it said that if there is a crooked stick, and you want to show how crooked it is, you need not waste words in description. Place a straight one by the side of it, and the thing is done directly..."[/i]

I don't know how Spurgeon being a pulpit minister and "confined to a church" has anything to do with the contextual creedence of this analogy (or any analogy at that), but I'll let others be the judge if perhaps this bit of wisdom may apply to our topic.

Again, allow me to repeat: We are on the same side; I am only proposing what I believe is a more efficacious and hence wiser way to get truth across other than berating and character assasination (and I'm not saying you are guilty of this).

Brother Paul

p.s. I think we are discussing this in the wrong thread, and the fault is mine entirely from the beginning. But, please, let's not divert anymore. Shoot me a PM, dear brother, if you would care to continue, or perhaps we can form a new thread :)


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2008/6/19 15:11Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy