Mat 23:6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.'
Mat 23:8 But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
Mat 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.

Some claim that because Paul opens his letters calling himself an apostle which legitimatizes men to take titles such as teacher, pastor, apostle and so on and require others to also call them as such but a close look at Paul's introductions and we find a different style of identification...

Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God

1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,

2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Tit 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,

In these NKJV scriptures Paul gives a term relating to his job description and not a title at all hence following the command from the Lord, in fact he shows clearly he's as much a bond/love doulous/slave of Christ as an apostle. Are the titles we find attached to post modern ministers stemming from cultural/professional pride? I as a minister have been faced with this issue over the years and have had to make some uncultural decisions...
I very much do not want to cause any division with this post especially with any who may be using a title, I am only desirous of digging deep into this little reviewed scripture and finding the heart of it's meaning (pride has been an important issue of review recently and I found this verse to be relational).

All for souls,

wta

_________________
William Thomas Anderson

It is interesting that the Lord says not to "allow" men to call you these things. Meaning, the onus is not on those who call others these things to cease from doing so, but rather, the onus is on those who are called such by others to not permit them to do so. Indeed, if men who are called such by those who sit under their instruction are instructed not to do so, then surely if they were willing to sit under their teaching, they will cease from calling them such.

It is interesting, I personally know a man at my church who was ordained by a certain denomination as a bishop. Yet, this man doesn't even attend a church within that denomination, let alone pastor any church. He just sits on one of our back pews and sometimes is asked to preach. Yet, some people (especially our pastor) will address this man as "bishop." The man even wears a reverse collar, colorful suits, and plastic/gold crosses! It is exactly this sort of thing the Lord spoke against. I believe the man is probably well meaning, but, just because one is well meaning doesn't mean one is right.

_________________
Jimmy H

Also just a note, this sort of thing creates a mutual self-congratulatory culture. I pay you a compliment so that you will acknowledge me. If I call you "father" or "rabbi" or "leader" and you receive such a compliment, then you receive me. Such creates a culture of man-pleasers.

_________________
Jimmy H

In your post you quoted Matt:23 vs. 8. We are "Brethren" first, and the spirit of titles is also the spirit of rulership, or positional superiority. This doctrine , or idea, is odious and utterly rejected by our Lord in many ways.

I think the Lord Jesus's own words, in Rev: chpt: 2, vs. 6.."But this you have;that you hate the [i]deeds[/i] of the [b]Nicolaitans[/b], which I also hate. It is not a complicated Greek word to translate. It, [i]NICO[/i], means ruler or King, and Laitan means, [i]under, or that which lays beneath[/i], thereby, the Kings, or the Rulers over my people. It also , in religious terms, denotes the position of these rulers; the wearing of robes or collars as " [b]THE CLERGY[/b], and hereby the introduction of titles into the Body of Christ.


But, remember, it is not the title in itself that Jesus hates, but the motives and Spirit behind it; the spirit of prideful and arrogant superiority over the weak and the meek. The strong and smart are more qualified and apt to rule. It is the doctrine of the Devil himself, in his cosmic order of princes and lords, that were transferred to all mankind, and brought to maturity at Babel, under the first of the great Lords, Nimrod. [ A hunter of the souls of men...}It then has covered the Earth. It is the spirit of the Ceasers; it is the spirit of the ancient religions brought under Rome's order, masterfully embodied in Romes real authority; alive and well in the mother of Whores; The Roman Catholic Church.


The real problem for us though, is that it is a spirit, and cannot be contained by ideas and concepts, and this same spirit, of Nicolaitism, has infilterated the so called Protestant church, which has always existed, since Pentecost.


3 john: ...Diotrehese..."Who loves the preeminence among the brothers....The big bishop himself...Diotrephes...bearing down upon the simple with a fury to dominate...power, position and privilege...these are the benefits of the Pastor!..Am I not worthy?...I would not want to be in His shoes, after John shredded him. He probably went to rag picking the next day. He was fired.


",....Jesus speaks....The Rulers of the Gentiles, are called [b] Benefactors[/b], but it shall not be named among you!"..."For you are all brothers, and you have one ruler and Head, even Christ!"...[.."Even Me"..]


This is the Doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which Jesus HATES!.....Rev:2.vs. 15.. Jesus hates the deeds, and doctrines of these who would usurp His rulership alone. They are wicked in His sight, for in the doing of their "ministry", they quench His ministry. He is no respecter of Persons, and gives equal love and honor, to all, and His favorites are those who love Him, and carry His heart, not those who demand Position as being on top.


Words carry spirit. "My words, carry spirit and Life."..[ Jesus.]...The translators of the 1611 KJV were in a bind. One word is used through out the New testament for the Shepherd, and should be translated as such,,,but:, to do so would dismantle the hierarchy the Church of England!.. A reformed Brtish Catholic Church..Not if you valued your life!


Thereby the many words for one...Bishop is the biggy here....oooooh!, B I S H O P!


The word means the ruler, and after a while, everyone..[almost, thank God,,almost.] received this idea, of a multi tiered system of Rulers. Thereby the Pastor of today. The Pastor has Elders. The Elders have Deacons. The Deacons have specialized ministries, divided into corps, all the way down to the kids....Wow!


Pride, and the benefits of following it.

The translators of KJV 1611 were a brilliant crew, and overall did a stellar and anointed work, but they were human, and liked having their heads attached to their necks to get around and all. This multi - translated word, Shepherds, to bolster the pyramidal and Babylonian structural system set in place by the quasi-Catholic Church of England wasn't the only debacle they compromised to. The other splinter, was "[b]Nicolaitan[/b]". It is simple, as I implied in my last post.....Lord or Kings over My people.


The King himself, James at the time, had to yield to the , and further more, [i]wanted[/i] to yield, to the hierarchy of the church, as a means to solidify his Authority among his people, and abroad. [b]IF[/b] he allowed this one simple word, to be translated as it was meant to be, as King or Lord, the common believer would figure it out, just like Jesus simply said. [i]"I hate what it is, and what it does. I HATE IT."[/i], then, most people would can it' defy it's obvious implications, IE, The Bishop is Naked!.. The King has no clothes!


The entire system would be thrown upon it's derriere', and chaos would ensue. This could not, nor would it happen. The church, as it was, and the King of England needed each other, and another darker prince was pulling the strings on his puppets, outside, in the nether world.


So, the entire English speaking World, the cradle of Christian freedom in the entire WORLD, was penetrated with a false hood, in the form of a mystical and almost undefinable term: [b]NICOLAITAN.[/b]. We know it's bad, but what does it mean? It must be a first century heresy. That's it....bad doctrine, that's it! Roman Catholic,, yeah, that's the ticket..those bad Catholic guys!


Today..the Pastor...always one man..A leader among equals!...and here we go again. The preeminence, and the love of it. There is no New Testament description of the Pastor, but always a plurality of Pastors, or, more honestly, a plurality of Shepherds. This Godly and holy system of unity and many, [not one] is the check and balance of Heaven itself. It prohibits the commandeering of one over the many, for whatever the reason. Men may become deceived, and Devil possessed, and take the church with them. It has happened many, many, times. Remember Jim Jones, and the holy Kool Aid communion. Cyanide and hundreds dead,, Oh dear Pastor! He sexed who he wanted, male or female, and enjoyed preeminence!


You could go on and on, but New Testament Doctrine prohibits the "one man show", and everyone knows it. I have confronted many with these scriptures, and the "pat" answer I get usually is, "Well it just doesn't work."


Thry're right, and it won't work where ambition and pride rule and reign, and mans awful lust to build a "name" for himself. It goes back to ascending to the sides of the North. This is the desire for preeminence. Pride,,Pride,, Pride!


Let us also consider that many, many holy and Godly men, operated under this system, with great favor, and respect of the Lord Jesus Himself. God has used this system, but more often than not, in the time of seduction, the once humble servant rises up with fury in his eyes and screams, "Look what I have built! Do you not know who I am?"



I think of Alexander Dowie, one of the most awesome men of God in the 20th century. [Read of his exploits, and confrontation with all of the AMERICAN powers that be, publicly!and his establishment of the first pentecostal city...Zion Illinois.] Satan came, not as the tempter of the passions of lust, but as the flatterer, and Brother Dowie, the one and only absolute dictator of men and cities, bowed the knee to himself....A name for himself..


In one of the more unusual public encounters ever, the Holy Spirit Himself met Alexander at the dedication of the Dowie temple in Zion.[with the chief Priest and undisputed Lord, Dowie himself as master of ceremonies] When Dowie touched the communion cup to drink, he was stricken instantly with a paralyzing stroke, and suffered two years or more, until he died from it. In the process, he lost everything, and even his own son was so disgraced, he changed his name. Worship and Dominion belong to Jesus alone. He is jealous.


Great fear came upon this fledgling Pentecostal child, and many gave up their ambition to be numero uno. I believe Dowie is in Heaven, as the Lord has looked upon his entire life covered by the blood. he may have had his works burnt in fire, but I think he was saved. I have used him only as a type, for there have been too many to name. We could spend hours doing that.


If this interests you, please read Ezekiel 34. This system unchecked can produce some real animals. even excluding the Satanic excesses and murders of multitudes by the Roman Catholic system. It is alive and real, next door, and it revolves around names, that identify the spirit of control, for the personal power and gain of the one who rules.



The pharisse's speak about the great ministry of the Lord Jesus, just prior to their murder of Him ; "This man does many miracles, and the people flock after Him. If we let Him continue, the Romans will come, and remove our Nation, and our place from us!" They only cared about their place, in the context that their nation provided their place,,,,a position of the benefactor. Power, Position, and Privilege.


Read [b]Acts, chapter 20[/b]. The grievous Wolves that would draw away others, to follow. To be a king, oh to be a king; a real success!,, a leader of men.


"But, it shall not be so among you, but the greatest shall be, [i]as the least[/i], and the servant of them all!" Just a simple servant, who loves his family, the people of God. One of several shepherds in the local assembly, where the unity of the Brothers rule and reign, not the cruel and arrogant ambition of one.[b]If we let Him continue, the Romans will come, and remove our place, and our Nation[/b] Alive and well in the honoring of one over the other, and this, alas, is designated by Names, which is the WHY of Jesus's command not to do so.....He hates the spirit of it.


"Do you not know. that God is NO respecter of Persons!"

_________________
Diane

I've found personally the longer I search to have the heart/mind of Christ I find how simple a mind I really have and how far I am from the mind that created the universe and all that's in it. With that said I've also learned that the Lord's commands are intended for simple minds like mine and by this rule I address His commands (his commands are that all should repent and know and be taught by God). I say all of that to say this...

Should I not just do what He says and pass all the questions that may arise? How difficult is it really to just simply agree and obey? If He says not to call men father, teacher, rabbi and the like (this seems consistant throughout scripture) and especially not permit others to call me as such who am I to second guess the Lord? Call me a simplton but this is the safe place my mind wants to come to...

All for souls,

wta

_________________
William Thomas Anderson

Diane: In no way did I , or will I suggest that because the clergy/laity system is broken, we do not need Pastors. I , in my post, was simply responding to the positional abuses and divisions that inevitably come when it is instituted.


[b]Without Godly Pastors, the church will perish.[/b] The Bible says that we are to submit to those who have the rule over us, and that without grieving them for they watch over our souls. Even Jesus, when referring their hypocrisy to the crowds, exhorted them to do as they say, not as they do! We must have order, and oversight in the body.


I am never going to call a man Father Smith , or Rev. Father Joe out of respect. That is the root purpose of the quote that began this thread. to do so, for me, would add respect on one who could not deserve it, and disrespect the One Father who does.



Concerning Paul's ordination status; it was impossible for him to relinquish it to a man. He never got it from a man. It would be hard for me to see him cow-towwing to a group of Catholic priests, calling them father this or that, for any reason.


At the end of the day there is one body, and one Spirit, and one Lord above all, who is no respecter of persons. Tom.

Mat 23:8b and you are all brethren.

We truly would fall apart without godly pastors but this can not happen as the Lord gives the gifts to men to do that job as it is a gift of the Spirit.

Eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
Eph 4:14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
Eph 4:15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

The ordination from heaven is what gives a person the supernatural ability to govern God's people and of course the Lord knew this when He spoke Mat 23 on this subject. It seems VERY clear in verse Mat 23:8b that He gives the leveling title to all, "brothers".
I personally, as I mentioned in previous posts have had to renounce the titles of pastor, reverend and the like to submit to this command from the Lord. My convictions do create a challenge when I'm a guest in other churches addressing others ministers/workers/servants of the Lord but I've also found very little resentence.

All for souls,

wta

_________________
William Thomas Anderson

The follow is what John Wesley had to say on this subject...

Mat 23:8-10 - The Jewish rabbis were also called father and master, by their several disciples, whom they required, To believe implicitly what they affirmed, without asking any farther reason; To obey implicitly what they enjoined, without seeking farther authority. Our Lord, therefore, by forbidding us either to give or receive the title of rabbi, master, or father, forbids us either to receive any such reverence, or to pay any such to any but God.

*** John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible

_________________
William Thomas Anderson