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warriorofgod
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Joined: 2006/2/26
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 The Modern Gospel 95 thesis

The Modern Gospel

To all those that preach and hear the Gospel today,

We as preachers are called to a higher calling seeing that we handle the word of God. We as listeners must be diligent to know the truth. There is a sunlight of truth that has been blackened by the smoke of confusion by what is known as the modern gospel. I pray that this thesis will spark a fire in your soul that will cause it to spread to your holy congregation.

1. There are those who say that you must believe in your heart and confess with your mouth in order to be saved. Yet they do not tell you that you must turn from your sin.
2. A man cannot be saved unless repentance, faith, and belief are all present at the time of salvation according to scripture. Men who preach the modern gospel make a formula for salvation that excludes any of these three foundation stones.
3. There are those who tell men that after salvation they must mature in the Lord but never tell them that they must deny all fleshly lusts.
4. There are those that preach the word of God and quote scripture verbatim, but neglect to balance Gods word and neglect to give a full understanding of what they preach.
5. A minister’s condemnation will not be in what they taught but what should’ve been taught. (Matthew 23:23; Luke 11:42)
6. There are those that desire to preach a gospel that wish to make men prosperous instead of making men broken over sin.
7. A man’s life does not consist of the abundance of things one possesses and any one that preaches that it does is an enemy of God. (Luke 12:15)
8. There are those that love to tell men that they are saved simply because they came to the altar and prayed. This is tragic since a man is given the assurance of their salvation by the Holy Spirit through His word. (Romans 8:16; Ephesians 1:13)
9. There are those that say that a prayer will not save men, but when someone desires to be saved, the preacher gives them the assurance of their salvation because they came forward and prayed. This is hypocrisy.
10. There are those that have a doctrinal statement that says “all men are sinners,” but they will never preach like they believe it.
11. The modern gospel has made room for general statements such as “all have sinned,” but never bring the understanding as to what “sins” are.
12. There are those that use the word conversion to mean “growing” or “maturing in the Lord.” This is hardly true since the primary definition of the word means salvation.
13. There are those that automatically call someone saved because they can recite a worthy testimony. Yet they are never asked the question of, “How do they know they are saved?”
14. There are those that tell men that they are saved because they can point to a bible verse that gives them the assumption that they are. Pointing to a bible verse and claiming it, without understanding, does not guarantee anyone’s salvation.
15. There are those that teach that you can be Carnal and be a Christian. Carnal means “Dog-like” and Christian mean “Christ –like”, these are contrary to one another.
16. There are those that preach and tell you things that will comfort you all the time and will never tell you things that reveal your sin, lest you should be uncomfortable.
17. There are preachers who tell you to check the bible to see if they are telling the truth but they will never tell you how to do it lest they should be exposed.
18. There are those that tell you that you can’t lose your salvation yet will never show you how you can make sure that you are saved.
19. There are those that say that you can lose your salvation but they will never tell you at what point you do.
20. The bible tells us in 1 John 3 that you are what you practice. If you are practicing sin, you are lost whether or not you think you can lose your salvation.
21. There are preachers that preach seven steps to freedom in Christ so that Christians can be “free,” but Jesus said that if the Son makes you free you shall be free indeed. (John 8:36)
22. There are those that preach that you must always tell people positive things so that they will become what you say. Encouragement is necessary, but it should not replace the wounds of reminding men of their sin so that they can turn from sin to Christ.
23. The modern gospel has brought in the Catholic version of buying your way into heaven by telling the un-saved to give tithes and offerings. We somehow give sinners assurance of their salvation if they give to the church.
24. We no longer preach a gospel that sends the terrifying wrath of Gods justice into the heart of man so that the amazing grace of Christ can be much more amazing.
25. We now preach that Jesus Christ died to make your life better instead of Jesus Christ died for your sin. (John 1:29)
26. The modern gospel preaches about sin but never against it.
27. We are told that not all are called to be evangelists, but we are never told that we are all called to evangelize. (Mark 16:15)
28. We are told that if we preach about hell and sin we will drive sinners away from Christ, yet doesn’t the bible say that they are all going there already? (John 3:18)
29. The modern gospel teaches us that we must use our lifestyle to witness to people about Jesus, but Lifestyle Evangelism has replaced true evangelism by not preaching the gospel.
30. Our lifestyle, without preaching, is useless unless we speak. Our light shines brighter when we open our mouths for Jesus Christ.
31. The Lifestyle Evangelism method has silenced the mouths of Christians and has paralyzed the tongue of the bride of Christ. We have become cowards instead of conquerors.
32. There are those that assume that your whole congregation is saved simply because they did not raise their hand, during an altar call, to be saved. This could not be farther from the truth. There are now more lost people in church than saved because of the modern gospel.
33. There are those that say that a child is saved simply because he prayed a sinner’s prayer, yet they will never look for fruit to see if the child exemplifies holiness. (Pro. 20:11)
34. A child will usually want salvation not because he understands sin, but because he does not want to go to hell. Nobody wants to go to hell, but not everybody wants to turn from sin.
35. A man cannot truly repent of any sin unless he has been confronted with the enormity of his crimes against a holy God. The modern gospel provides the comfort a sinner does not need.
36. There are ministers that tell you that you must recognize that you are a sinner before you decide to get saved. Yet recognizing does nothing for your understanding of how offensive sin is in the sight of God.
37. There are pastors and elders that preach the gospel in the church building, but have never done any kind of preaching outside the pulpit. This is a tragedy and shows the unfulfilled ministry of being a true preacher. (Mark 16:15)
38. There are those that teach that you must always have joy as a Christian, but yet the bible is written by men who were afflicted. You are never taught that you will suffer in this life. (Acts 14:22)
39. Love, fulfillment, peace, and prosperity are all teachings exalted today in our pulpits which make Jesus Christ a slave to your life instead of the master of your life.
40. Many preachers, under the modern gospel, will not tell you that you should fear the Lord because their fear of men is greater. (Proverbs 29:25; 2 Corinthians 5:11)
41. The modern gospel allows for us to speak things into existence or teach that we can say things and it will come to pass. While our words have power, they cannot usurp Gods power over what will or will not happen in our lives.
42. Though we are created in the image of God, we are not God! There are those that teach a veiled version of us being gods on earth. Claiming bible verses that support our will, demanding that God perform our request in Jesus name, and speaking things into the atmosphere are all damning doctrines that give men and woman the false assurance that they can be like God.
43. There are those that hold music to a higher regard than the actual gospel being preached. They exemplify this by spending more time singing then preaching or by putting a bigger emphasis on music.
44. We are told not to “judge” other professing Christians. This is devastating to all of Christianity! Because then what is the point of preaching, going to church, accountability, church discipline, and fellowship. Men who preach this forget about the doctrine of righteous judgment. (John 7:24)
45. New “on fire” Christians, which are underneath the teaching of the modern gospel, will often be called self righteous or proud; because while they are obeying the Lord’s commandments, everyone around them feels very uncomfortable because they themselves are not.
46. Often pastors or teachers may squelch the fire new Christians have by rebuking them for their lack of maturity or inexperience and will provide no remedy. Rebuke without correction leaves a devastated heart.
47. Today you cannot challenge the pastor or teacher in what he teaches. If you do, you are called divisive or self righteous. Under this kind of leadership growth will be painful, but it will cause the faithful to find the truth of Gods word.
48. There are those that teach that you can be saved and yet be out of fellowship with Christ. This is not a biblical statement seeing that a Christian cannot be saved unless he has fellowship with Christ. (1 John 1:6)
49. Spiritual gifts are not an indicator that you are saved but living a holy lifestyle is. There are many men who will do miracles in the name of Jesus and still end up in hell. (Matthew 7:22-23)
50. Our church vision does not override the vision of the bible. If you are of those that take priority of church vision over what the bible says, then you should be very weary of your salvation seeing that you are raising a cult.
51. We are told that it is very dangerous to call men unsaved but many of us are quicker to call them saved which is far more dangerous. We cannot call men unsaved but we can declare them saved? This is hypocrisy.
52. If a man is born again, calling him unsaved will cause him to look deeper into the bible for assurance from God. If a man is not born again, calling him unsaved will cause him to get angry.
53. If a man is not born again, a man calling him saved will satisfy him. If a man is born again, a man calling him saved will not satisfy him.
54. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment and yet there are many who do not preach in accordance with the Holy Spirit. (John 16:8)
55. There are some that preach that a Christian can be saved and yet not grow. This is an insult to a God who starts a good work in you and will finish it. (Philippians 1:6; John 15:16)
56. There are some that teach that if you are Christian and continue sinning, that God will kill you and take you to heaven because of your life of continual sin. This makes room for men who call themselves saved to live how ever they want. Continual sin shows that you are not saved. (1 John 3:7-8)
57. We are taught that you must look like the crowd you are preaching to because you must become all things to all men so that you can save some. How you dress does not save men! The gospel message saves men! I very rarely see a preacher going out in Goth clothing because he felt he needed to reach a Satanist.
58. The modern Gospel has removed the greatest weapon to win the souls of lost men, the Ten Commandments. We have become so afraid to be called legalistic and/or judgmental that we can no longer call a man what he is according to Gods law.
59. The Modern gospel preachers tell us that there are other ways to win sinners other than using the Ten Commandments. This is partly true. Though we use many methods to attract sinners, all methods must funnel through the understanding of sin. Unless a man understands his sin to be exceedingly sinful, he cannot repent and be saved.
60. When preachers refuse to use Gods law to bring the knowledge of sin, they are withholding the schoolmaster that will lead a sinner to Christ. (Galatians 3:24-25)
61. Most covetous preachers will not use the law of God because their own love for money will be made manifest by the tenth commandment. (Luke 16:14)
62. Building self esteem in our children through flattery will not help their Christian walk. We must be shown our unworthiness before a holy God so that we can depend upon the Holy Spirit for esteem.
63. There are some that preach in a way that exalts themselves rather than Christ. They show this by having themselves sit in a place of honor and by constantly emphasizing authority. (Matthew 23:2-7; Luke 22:25-26)
64. The altar of the modern gospel has become a place where men can confess their sins and go away unchanged. Men come to the altar to psychologically dump the guilt of what’s been preached to them instead of letting men soak in the womb of conviction.
65. No where in the bible will you see any formula that is remotely close to what we see as the”altar call”. The altar call is not a biblical formula! It is a tradition of man that is shortcutting repentance and is giving many men the false assurance of salvation.
66. The modern Gospel no longer makes room for the Judgment of hell. There are many men who love to preach the love of God but never touch on the justice of God.
67. God’s goodness is not Him turning a blind eye to sin. The goodness of God leads to repentance because it shows that God is not quick to inflict His wrath upon sinners. This is an attractive quality of God but one day that quality will run dry. (Romans 2:4)
68. There are many that preach that by Gods loving-kindness He draws men to him, but they will never say why it draws men. It is because God is angry with the wicked every day and his loving-kindness is what prevents Him from giving immediate judgment. But judgment will come to all those that do not repent. This is rarely preached in the modern gospel. (Psalm 7:11; Jeremiah 9:24)
69. There are those in the modern gospel that say you should not put God in a box, but they forget that Gods “box” is His word (the bible); He will not do anything contrary to it.
70. All those that claim that God is doing a new thing for the new generation never read in the bible, where Solomon says, that there is nothing new under the sun. Anything new that does not line up with the word is satanic. (Ecclesiastes 1:9)
71. The modern gospel allows for men to indulge in movies or TV programs that are immoral because what is preached does not go against what they watch. Therefore, there is no guilt for watching filth because the modern gospel allows it.
72. The modern gospel has traded the joy of the Holy Ghost with entertainment. We have to go to amusement parks or have a fun night of bowling to have joy in our Christian walk.
73. No longer is the bible exalted as the joy of our lives because we have replaced it with study’s that finds its foundation in movies which the Lord himself would not approve of.
74. The modern gospel has changed the message of Jesus to be more appealing to those that are lost. Men do not enjoy intolerant messages of sin and consequences, so modern preachers have provided a friendlier version of the gospel in their preaching.
75. The modern Gospel no longer challenges men about their salvation. We can no longer tell a man, who is living in blatant sin, that he is lost. We will be called judgmental and un-loving. God forbid this man realizes he is lost and gets saved.
76. The modern Gospel tells us that we are “defeated Christians” when we walk around depressed. Yet the bible tells us in Ecclesiastes that the wise live in the house of mourning. We can be happy and read the bible, but the bible is best read when we are afflicted. (Ecclesiastes 7:4)
77. There are those that say a person does not have to change the way they talk, walk, and look when they get saved. But a person who is genuinely saved will be concerned about these matters.
78. There are preachers who say we should not to be specific in our preaching, because we are not the Holy Spirit to be convicting men of sin. But preachers act like the Holy Spirit when they pronounce men saved when they are not.
79. Christians, under the preaching of the modern gospel, which desire to show other men their convictions, will be labeled as self righteous and are told not to push their convictions upon others.
80. The modern gospel is breeding women who are proud and do not permit their husbands to be the leader of the household, because the modern gospel allows for the women to lead.
81. There are preachers who will not rebuke today’s Christian woman for their love of shopping and materialism for fear that they will drag their husbands out of church.
82. The modern gospel has made room for many church programs that consume our time rather than concentrating on soul winning and discipleship. We no longer intensely involve ourselves with the salvation of men or the teaching of new Christians.
83. The modern gospel calls all those that do nothing for Christ “Carnal Christians”, but the bible makes no room for such a statement. If these kinds of people are apart of your church, they are dead members, and not apart of the body of Christ.
84. Preachers that preach the modern gospel will be harsh toward those who continually question what they believe; because most of what they believe is based off a man centered gospel and not a Christ centered one. They have built their doctrines on wood, hay, and stubble rather than silver, gold, and precious stones. (1 Corinthians 3:12)
85. The modern gospel has made room for practicing homosexuals as well as woman in the office of Pastor, Elder, or Bishop. Since we are not supposed to be judgmental, we can now compromise the scriptures and allow anyone to have authority.
86. There are those that preach inspirational messages but do not have the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not preach messages that build self esteem or teach you how to “live your best life now.”
87. A man that is baptized with Gods spirit may not necessarily manifest any “spiritual gift.” True baptism of Gods spirit is always manifested when that man lives a holy life according to the bible.
88. The Romans Road does not adequately explain sin and your need for salvation until we proficiently expound on its meaning. We must preach the way John the Baptist did and compel men with Gods law so that it can make way for the Lord Jesus Christ.
89. The modern gospel is something that God hates with a passion because it is sending more men to hell than winning them to Christ.
90. Again, anyone who preaches this modern gospel is accursed according to scripture because they preach a gospel that does not line up with the way it is supposed to be preached. (Galatians 1:8-9)
91. Again, anyone who tolerates this modern gospel to be preached in their area need to speak up and reason with the thinking of these preachers so that they can see how many men are going to hell because of it.
92. Again, the modern gospel is very popular; I understand that it can be very intimidating to speak against it. But we must plead to our leaders about this teaching that is killing the bride of Christ. The more we allow this kind of preaching to go on, the more endangered souls will be on the Day of Judgment.
93. If you are very offended by this thesis, unless you can prove scripturally that what I am saying is wrong, then you must turn away from preaching this modern gospel.
94. The gospel of Jesus Christ commands all of us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. The modern gospel will never exhort you to do this. If you have preached this modern gospel message or have been “saved” underneath this kind of preaching, I am pleading with you that you double check to see if you are really saved.
(2 Corinthians 13:5)
95. Finally, all those that preach the modern gospel will look at this thesis and will try their hardest to defend that gospel because they have been revealed. If any man disagrees with this letter in any point, it may be that a portion of his teaching has been poisoned with the modern gospel. Run for your lives and run to the gospel of Jesus Christ that tells you that you are guilty of sinning against God. Run to the true Jesus that will change you inside and out and not allow you to be a “Carnal Christian”. Run to the true Jesus that is more concerned with spiritual blessing rather then natural. Run to the Jesus that tells you that you must die to your sin and die to all that you want in this life. Run to the Jesus that saves you not because you prayed a sinner’s prayer, but because you truly repented of your sin. Run to the Jesus that will not allow all those that practice sin to enter into heaven. Run to the true Jesus that will judge all those that are preaching this gospel that is sending the mankind He died for into hell.

Ev8thdayangel@yahoo.com
George Alvarado

 2008/6/14 18:59Profile
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re: The Modern Gospel 95 thesis

In all of these instances when you sum up what this "modern gospel" espouses you over-simplify many things and do not do justice to what they actually teach.

Quote:
29. The modern gospel teaches us that we must use our lifestyle to witness to people about Jesus, but Lifestyle Evangelism has replaced true evangelism by not preaching the gospel.


You act as though using one's "lifestyle to witness" is bad. I think the usage of "lifestyle" here is bad though, it should be "life." Every Christian must be authentic for his Christianity to be true. For his proclamation of God to be true his character and disposition must be likewise true. No one will accept a man or woman if they are hypocrites, this is very important. Our authenticity is tested everyday and we must choose whether or not to retain that authenticity. It is of utter importance.

Where do you get this notion from that "true evangelism" is merely "preaching the gospel"? I'd say the "anti-modern gospel" (what you are espousing) teaches you to preach the gospel "hard" without focusing on an authentic life. By authentic life I do not refer to "not sinning," but to living a life that is honest in character and deed.

Quote:
28. We are told that if we preach about hell and sin we will drive sinners away from Christ, yet doesn’t the bible say that they are all going there already? (John 3:18)


This is not the only argument made by such people from the "modern gospel." Another argument is that we are in no place to condemn someone. God is the ultimate judge and he decides the eternal resting spot of a person ("Vengeance is mine, says the Lord"). We are not in the position to do that, and to put ourselves in that position is arrogant.

Where in the Bible does it say we should preach hell? Just because it says a certain category of people may be condemned does not mean we have any right to preach (proclaim) that to them. What is the central thing we should be proclaiming to them instead? Jesus Christ risen from the dead. Hell, no. Preaching hell is, as Karl Barth said, "the gospel at gunpoint." When we proclaim the gospel it should of utmost be displayed in an authentic life first. Next if you were to communicate the gospel verbally or in any other sense than your life it should be full of the testimony when revelation has come down to one from God through the power of Jesus Christ. What Jesus Christ did in his life by standing with the oppressed and ultimately dying for the poor in the crucifixion and rising in resurrection.

Anything less (e.g., focus on hell) is hogwash and has no place in preaching the good news of our Lord.

Best,
Jordan

 2008/6/15 3:29Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: The Modern Gospel 95 thesis

Quote:
58. The modern Gospel has removed the greatest weapon to win the souls of lost men, the Ten Commandments. We have become so afraid to be called legalistic and/or judgmental that we can no longer call a man what he is according to Gods law.
59. The Modern gospel preachers tell us that there are other ways to win sinners other than using the Ten Commandments. This is partly true. Though we use many methods to attract sinners, all methods must funnel through the understanding of sin. Unless a man understands his sin to be exceedingly sinful, he cannot repent and be saved.
60. When preachers refuse to use Gods law to bring the knowledge of sin, they are withholding the schoolmaster that will lead a sinner to Christ. (Galatians 3:24-25)



The Law was given to God's chosen people, not to the heathen world. Thus, if even the Cross of Christ is foolishness to those who are perishing, what shall become of His Holy Law?

No where in Scripture does it say, "go ye with the Ten Commandments and convict the world by the Law of ordinances."

Christians are not even under the Law for righteousness sake. But rather the Law of Christ Jesus, which is the First and Greatest Commandment and the Second Commandment, which is like unto the First; on these Two Commandments hang All of the Law and All of the Prophets. These being a fulfillment of the Ten Commandments according to the Life-giving Spirit and not the letter which kills. Also further revealed by the Holy Spirit in the "beatitudes".

And again, this is given to God's people, not heathens. So as you have said, truly, a "schoolmaster that will lead a sinner to Christ", yet not for being born-again, but for sanctification of the believer.

Quote:
88. The Romans Road does not adequately explain sin and your need for salvation until we proficiently expound on its meaning. We must preach the way John the Baptist did and compel men with Gods law so that it can make way for the Lord Jesus Christ.



I absolutely agree, I have never been impressed with the "Roman Road" myself.

In John chapter 5, Jesus explains the witnesses He receives.

[b]John 5[/b]
33. "You have sent to John [the Baptist], and he has testified to the truth.
34. "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.

John's preaching surely saved men, but Jesus still says, "the testimony which I receive is not from man", directly speaking of John the Baptist. And later, verse 41, Jesus says to the same effect, "I do not receive glory from men."

The following are the only witnesses Jesus receives.

[b]John 5[/b]
36. "But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the [b]works which the Father has given Me to accomplish[/b]--the very works that I do--testify about Me, [u]that the Father has sent Me[/u].

37. "[b]And the Father who sent Me[/b], He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

The Scriptures themselves (including the Ten Commandments) are not a perfect witness. As we read,

[b]John 5[/b]
39. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40. and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

You will notice, Jesus does not say of the Scriptures, that common phrase as with the Works of the Holy Spirit and the Witness of the Father, that they testify "[b]that the Father has sent Me[/b]".

The Scriptures indeed testifies about Jesus but do not share in this pivotal evidence "[b]that the Father has sent His Son[/b]".

I will explain further after this next quotation.

Quote:
87. A man that is baptized with Gods spirit may not necessarily manifest any “spiritual gift.” True baptism of Gods spirit is always manifested when that man lives a holy life according to the bible.



I am sorry to say, I cannot agree with this statement.

To say that someone may be "baptized with the Holy Spirit" and not manifest any "Gift of the Spirit", is the same as saying, "you can be born-again and not have the witness of the Spirit in you."

Thus, I will now continue what I began writing. Let us follow that phrase "[b]that the Father has sent His Son[/b]" as seen through John chapter 17.

[b]John 17[/b]
3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, [b]and Jesus Christ, [u]whom thou hast sent[/u][/b].

4. I have [b]glorified thee[/b] on the earth: I have [b]finished the work[/b] (see again [b]John 5:36[/b]) which thou gavest me to do.
5. And now, O Father, [b]glorify thou me[/b] [u]with thine own self[/u] with the glory which I had [b]with thee before the world was[/b].

And we know this glory from,
[b]John 1:1[/b]
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

[b]John 17[/b]
8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and [b]have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me[/b].

11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, [b]that they may be one, as we are[/b] (see again the glory which Jesus had before the world was).

18. [b]As thou hast sent me into the world[/b], even [b]so have I also sent them into the world[/b].
(Jesus shares this pivotal witness with us. As the Father sent His Son, so now the Son has sent His own.)

21. [b]That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, [u]that they also may be one in us[/u][/b]:

[b][u]that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.[/u][/b]

22. And [b]the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one[/b]:

23. [b]I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one[/b];

[b][u]and that the world may know that thou hast sent me[/u][/b]

--- and [b]hast loved them, as thou hast loved me[/b].

24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, [b]and these have known that thou hast sent me[/b].
26. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that [b]the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them[/b].


My apologies for skipping a large portion of John 17, I know it is all good! And apologies again, for all of my excitable bold print and underlining.

Please, allow me to explain.

I am simply assuming, but I take it that you are in agreement with The Way of the Master Ministries. As they also hold forth the Ten Commandments to unbelieving sinners.

I will say as Jesus said concerning John, they have "testified to the truth. But the testimony which [Jesus] receives is not from man."

The greatest tragedy in the Christian Experience is reading,

[b]1 Corinthians 12[/b]
31. But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.

And simply exluding the Gifts of the Spirit as insignificant or unnecessary. When in a truth this verse is more properly translated,

"But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show this way in its highest form." -- That is Charity, Love.

This is a focus of tremendous importance to my own personal faith. And something that must provoke every Christian to the true knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Call it Thesis 96, if you will...

[b]96.[/b] Christ has promised, You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses even to the remotest part of the earth. Without the power of the Holy Spirit we are not witnesses whom Christ has sent or witnesses He shall receive, even though men may be saved by our efforts.

As it has been testified, it is amazing what American Christians can do without God.


Just as there are a "variety of gifts, but the same Spirit."
So also, "the body (the church) is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
For [b]by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body[/b]. ([b]1 Corinthians 12[/b])"

The one body of Christ -- the true believers -- are baptized into one Spirit.

[b]So that the world may know[/b]; it is these that testify about Jesus, that the Father has sent Him and, more over, that He has sent us in His Name.

The Gifts of the Spirit and the Unity of the Brethren ([b]Psalm 133[/b]) are inseperable; with the highest form of this Way described in [b]1 Corinthians 13[/b].

Wherein comes your statement about the Fruits of the Spirit: "Gods spirit is always manifested when that man lives a holy life" -- though I will make a slight adjustment -- "according to the true knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ" ([b]2 Peter 1[/b]).


To end with an example for comparison:

[b]a)[/b] You need to repent because you've broken a Holy God's Commandments ... etc.

Response: And Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to [repent and believe]? I know not the LORD ..." ([b]Exodus 5:2[/b]).

[b]b)[/b] "But [b]so that you may know that the Son of Man[/b] has power on earth to forgive sins" -- then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home. ([b]Matthew 9:6[/b])"

Response: Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? ([b]Exodus 15:11[/b])



Quote:
Where in the Bible does it say we should preach hell?



The very fact that the Bible preaches about hell is the very reason we preach hell.

The Gospel message is the only message given unto sinners. And while it is true, the last thing we need to do is perpetuate the "Utilitarian Christ" that died for no other reason than to save wicked men from the discomforts of a bad hell. This does not mean we do not preach hell to sinners; or heaven, for that matter.

-- The Gospel is preached in all of its nuances, for this purpose: that the Lamb who was slain may receive the rewards of His suffering!

None-the-less, "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God," by Jonathan Edwards, is exceptional meditation for Christians.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/15 3:58Profile
warriorofgod
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 193


 Re:

Thank you for your very elaborate response. I would like to clarify some confusion on my thesis, then I will challenge you on one of your statements.

When I said that "a person will not necessarily manifest any spiritual gift," I was speaking more about "tongues" and sign gifts. I probably should do a little re-wording. Thank you for giving me a little clarity.

In regards to this statement: "The Law was given to God's chosen people, not to the heathen world."

I agree with this statement but I find only a partial truth. The Law was a covenant given to them but it was already practiced by the heathen long before it's establishment. When I say law, I am speaking about the ten Commandments.

Even Paul wrote that the Gentiles were a law to themselves (ROm 2:15) and did those things written in the law. If you really want to go back further, who is God's people before the Jews? (In this portion I am speaking about natural seed not the spiritual.)
Wasn't Abraham a Gentile? what about before abraham, what were they? They still practiced everything that noah taught them and then corrupted themselves. But even with this corruption, there were things that were practiced already that were not yet written in the Torah.

I am not saying any of this in a sarcastic tone, but I am simply pointing out that though the law was given as a SIGN of God's covenant, it was also given that the whole world might be guilty before God (Rom. 3:19; 5:20; Gal. 3:8-10,22).

Let me know what you think. Thank you again for responding to the thesis.

 2008/6/16 7:06Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Look again, to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the 120 in the upper-room. When they were speaking in "other tongues," tongues of foreign languages; Peter declared this SIGN was what?

[b]Acts 2[/b]
15. "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
16. but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17. `AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says,
`THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
18. EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
19. `AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
20. `THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
21. `AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

This was the explanation of the SIGN of other tongues. The SIGN of the Holy Spirit being poured out upon mankind and the Wonders of God's Salvation. This same SIGN which many modern churches either neglect or reject. Is something wrong with this SIGN? God surely doesn't have a problem with this SIGN, does He? He gave it, why not accept it? Why settle for less or to be without?


Quote:
The Law was a covenant given to them but it was already practiced by the heathen long before it's establishment. When I say law, I am speaking about the ten Commandments.



I doubt many "heathens" were practicing the Ten Commandments according to the beatitudes. The Ten Commandments is a list of Do-and-Do-Not's; simple idleness will just about cover "doing" most of the commandments. The beatitudes is the "Why". It doesn't matter how much obedience to the Law is evident, if there is no "beatitude-heart" behind it. This is the Law that must be done, even if instinctively.

Quote:
pointing out that though the law was given as a SIGN of God's covenant, it was also given that the whole world might be guilty before God (Rom. 3:19; 5:20; Gal. 3:8-10,22).



The whole world, every one, is guilty before God according to His Standard in Christ Jesus.

The reason I say these things is not because the Law does not condemn but because the Law is [b]not for conviction[/b]. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. The Law is the letter by which all men die; the Spirit is the Life by which all men may live.

It troubles me when I see evangelists, or whoever, out on the streets, or wherever, telling people "You've broken God's Law!" -- while clearly no one is concerned, much less convicted.

Keep in mind, I am not speaking of "seekers" but people who altogether want nothing to do with "this Jesus thing". I am not talking about teaching and discipling anyone who is willing and ready to hear by faith the written Word of God. There are still a few of those around, thank God. But I am specifically talking about the worst case unbeliever. There is no reason to consider ourselves prepared for living the Way if we aren't fully prepared for "deep waters" where the "fish" are.

First off, God's Law was a covenant with His chosen people. That THROUGH His people obeying His Law, the world should be judged and provoked and converted.

Mentioning Abraham, [b]Genesis 18[/b],
19. "For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

And, mentioning the Lord's ways, [b]Psalm 51[/b]
9. Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.
10. Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11. Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.
13. Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.

And, mentioning His people, in His ways, [b]Isaiah 58[/b],
6. "Is this not the fast which I choose,
To loosen the bonds of wickedness,
To undo the bands of the yoke,
And to let the oppressed go free
And break every yoke?

7. "Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry
And bring the homeless poor into the house;
When you see the naked, to cover him;
And not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

8. "Then your light will break out like the dawn,
And your recovery will speedily spring forth;
And your righteousness will go before you;
The glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.

9. "Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
You will cry, and He will say, `Here I am.'
If you remove the yoke from your midst,
The pointing of the finger and speaking wickedness,

10. And if you give yourself to the hungry
And satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
Then your light will rise in darkness
And your gloom will become like midday.

11. "And the LORD will continually guide you,
And satisfy your desire in scorched places,
And give strength to your bones;
And you will be like a watered garden,
And like a spring of water whose waters do not fail.

12. "Those from among you will rebuild the ancient ruins;
You will raise up the age-old foundations;
And you will be called the repairer of the breach,
The restorer of the streets in which to dwell.

13. "If because of the sabbath, you turn your foot
From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,
And call the sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,

14. Then you will take delight in the LORD,
And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken."


Secondly, the Gentiles, [b]Romans 2[/b],

14. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15. in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.

And what is this "Law the Gentiles do instinctively"?

It is as Jesus did speak:
Again, the same as the Holy Spirit did reveal through Isaiah (Isaiah 58). As the beatitudes reveal the intent of the Law and the First and Second Greatest Commandments are the Spirit of the Law.


What did the Apostle's preach?

[b]Peter preaching to Jews
Acts 4[/b]
24/ [...] they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM,
25. who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said, `WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE,
AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS ?
26. `THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND,
AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER
AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.'
27. "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28. to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
29. "And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence,
30. while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus."
31. And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
32. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.
33. [b]And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all[/b].


[b]Paul preaching to Gentiles
Acts 17[/b]
18. And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him. Some were saying, "What would this idle babbler wish to say?" Others, "He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities,"--[b]because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection[/b].


It is possible that the Ten Commandments might be used [b]in[/b] the Gospel but it is always the Power of Christ's Spirit that pierces a man's heart. When the Word that testifies about Jesus (even the Ten Commandments) is MUCH MORE testified by the Living Word Himself working with His Spirit-filled Christians.


Ten Commandments and all of Scripture = the Letter

Holy Spirit = the Spirit and the Life

[b]John 5[/b]
39. "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40. and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

And, we Christians point sinners to the Bible. "But, Oh!" we say, "Let us get them to read it for themselves! Get them a Bible, so they can search the Scriptures!"

We are leading this world astray, eternal life is not in the Scriptures. Praise God for His tender Grace that any of us have been saved at all this way.

We say, "Seek and ye shall find Jesus ... and you will find Jesus right here in this Bible, read all about Him. Well done, there you go, you've got eternal life brother, you have read all about it."

Please, don't misunderstand my criticism of Scripture or the Ten Commandments or of giving out Bibles, etc. My criticism is not in these, but in the way we have exalted these above the Life-giving Word of the Resurrected, Living and Active Christ.

We have settled for a Gospel written on tablets of paper; and neglected the Gospel written on tablets of flesh in the hearts of men; and neglected the Gospel of the Spirit Himself bearing witness with our spirits that we are heirs of the Promise through faith in Christ Jesus.

We have settled for a Gospel without the Lord confirming the Word with signs and wonders. Just as we have settled for a Baptism of the Holy Spirit without signs of speaking in other tongues and/or prophecy and/or exalting God (these signs being seperate from the Gifts of the Spirit). Some might say it is evil to "require a sign" because that is "wicked and perverse". I do not see it as requiring a sign, indeed not. I see it exactly the opposite. I see a God of signs and wonders frustrated with a people content with a far too human manifestation of an Awesome God. All natural with no supernatural. All truth with no Spirit. All words with no Power. All man with no God.

All in all, I have no problem with preaching the Ten Commandments. But the methodology which has become of it frustrates me. Perhaps, I need to be more specific why I have mentioned the Ten Commandments being given to Israel and not the world. As I quoted before the comment by Pharoah, "Who is the Lord that I should fear Him?" People today say the same thing.

"I have my own laws to live by."
"Morality is all subjective."
"Jesus was just a guy."
"How could Jesus die 2,000 years ago and save me today?"
"What sin, I'm a good person."

...

"Well, the Bible says ..." (there's that Bible by the Letter. Relying on persuasive words, even from Holy Writ, rather than demonstrations of Spirit and Power.)

Do a Bible study sometime on these phrases:
"so that you may know"
"so that the world may know"

and, especially these previous phrases in conjunction with,
"that the Father has sent Me" or "whom the Father has sent" or "that I came from the Father", etc. "and have loved them, just as He has loved Me."

[b]And then seek the Lord Jesus to get that Life.[/b]

For the Bible does not say the Ten Commandments are the witness that Jesus is both Lord and Christ, Emmanuel! "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses." When you are made a witness in the Holy Spirit you shall be the Lord's Living Commandments -- Love ye one another even as Christ so love you and gave Himself ...


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/16 22:05Profile
warriorofgod
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 193


 Re:

I hope that this thesis will spark you to show that God is not well pleased with todays preaching.

I wish I could go point by point from everything you told me, but I would have to show you in a timley, casual, face to face conversation why: You do not understand Gods law, Why you suppose men must speak in tongues when they are baptized with his spirit, and why you misunderstand the holy spirit convicting of sin, righteousness, and judgement in accordance with Gods law.

It is also disheartening when you do not like when street preachers say "you broke Gods Law." Almost every faithful preacher (that can read) has used the law to precede the Gospel.
Spurgeon, Booth, Whitfield , Wesley, to name a few, all said to sinners, "you have broken God law.

I will no longer respond to any of your comments. This isn't to be a jerk or unloving. There is way too much to cover here that is being misunderstood. Thank you for the advise that you provided earlier, I will take it to heart. Continue to study God's word and RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth. God Bless.

 2008/6/17 18:18Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re:

Hm, and so you have indeed misunderstood me.

Quote:
Why you suppose men must speak in tongues when they are baptized with his spirit



I do not suppose this, God will not force anyone to do anything they will not. Truly, the Lord loves a cheerful giver -- one who obeys His commands freely. Read the testimonies of Smith Wigglesworth or any other minister who was foremost in Baptism of the Holy Spirit and they are the ones who suppose this evidence.

I only asked the question, "why shouldn't we accept the sign?" I didn't say it was required.

Quote:
It is also disheartening when you do not like when street preachers say "you broke Gods Law." Almost every faithful preacher (that can read) has used the law to precede the Gospel.
Spurgeon, Booth, Whitfield , Wesley, to name a few, all said to sinners, "you have broken God law.



Did I say that preaching the "Ten Commandments" was taboo? No, I did not.

My problem is not that anyone says, "you broke God's Law," but that I know it is coming from nothing more than persuasive words. What I see from street preachers today is "words" with no "power". If you really want to challenge someone on breaking God's laws; why not do it according to the Law of Christ Jesus?

As the Scripture says for those who have sinned are "under" the law. This gives a description that there is a "ceiling", if you will. While the Law of Christ is seated at the right hand of God in heaven. Such has no ceiling to its Perfection and is unaccessible outside of the Spirit of Grace and Truth. Moses himself said that the laws of the OT,

[b]Deuteronomy 30[/b]
11. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13. Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14. But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

But the Law of Christ Jesus is greater than the OT law because it is the summation and fulfillment of it all -- Love God and Love one another!

As I said, my frustration is the "methodology" which has become the preaching of the Ten Commandments. It is all with persuasive words and human wisdom and makes void the cross of Christ ([b]1 Corinthians 1:17[/b]).


If it might help, to consider what I am saying with, "telling people 'You've broken God's Law!' -- while clearly no one is concerned, much less convicted."

In this context:
A pastor before a church preaching, "hell is a terrible place with eternal torment -- yawn -- and never-ending sorrow."

It is all true but the words must have Life! Neither is charisma enough, there must be Holy Fire!

[b]John 16:8[/b]
"And He (the Holy Spirit), when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment."

[b]1 Corinthians 14:24[/b]
But if all prophesy (Gift of the Holy Spirit), and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;

[b]1 Thessalonians 1:5[/b]
for our gospel [u]did not come to you in word only[/u], but [b]also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction[/b]; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

[b]Jude 1:14-15[/b]
"Behold, [b][u]the Lord came[/u] with many thousands of His holy ones[/b], to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

[b]Mark 16:20[/b]
And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.
(It doesn't concern me if you would like to question this verse, if it is in the original manuscript. It fully agrees with the witness of Scripture - just read the Acts of the Apostles.)


Have I misunderstood it, as you say? Or have I spoken something deeper which has been sorely neglected in the "Normal Christian Life"?

If there is another Scripture that speaks of [b]convicting the world[/b], please let me know.


[b]Matthew 9:6[/b]
"But [b]so that you may know[/b] that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, pick up your bed and go home."

[b]John 10:38[/b]
but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, [u]believe the works (of miracles)[/u], [b]so that you may know [u]and understand[/u][/b] that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

[b]John 17:23[/b]
I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity (Psalm 133), [b][u]so that the world may know[/u] that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me[/b].


I have truly commended the witness of the Commandments but not accordingly to the Ten written on tablets of stone. But according to the First and Second Greatest Commandment, these which include, summate, give substance, to all of the Ten Commandments. And even this, without the Presence of the Holy Spirit, is man attempting to work the righteousness of God. It simply doesn't work this way.

The Holy Spirit in power is also not the same as being born-again and receiving the inward witness of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit in power is the outward witness for the edification of the church and for the world to know that the Father has loved us all just as He has loved His Son, Christ Jesus.

If this is offensive to you, my apologies, I am not trying to do so. I am only giving Scripture as I read it.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/6/18 6:15Profile
warriorofgod
Member



Joined: 2006/2/26
Posts: 193


 Re:

Thank you for the input. Well taken and not ignored.

 2008/6/19 1:33Profile





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